Leo's aren't all bad

imported post

marshaul wrote:

You know, if everybody was armed and able to defend themselves, that would be a real deterrent, unlike punishment criminals hope to avoid. We wouldn't have to execute anybody in a truly free country. The threat of being killed in the process of committing a crime will stop far more crime than the threat of punishment later.

Click to expand...

The death penalty could have more of a deterrent effectthan it does. The problem is that it isn't used nearly often enough. A criminal who is killed during the commission of a crime has simply met the death penalty earlier than some criminals do. There is a sure-fire way to dramatically reduce the number of murders.
1. Fast-track all murder trials.
2. Allow only one (speedy)appeal.
3. Fast-track the execution if the guilty verdict is upheld.

If everybodyKNEW thatall murdererswould be executed within 30 days of being found guilty, the murder rate would plummet.

Now you may say that some people would simply think that they would never get caught. Very true. But I'm sure that some criminals think that meeting up with an armedvictim will never happen to them.

imported post

richarcm wrote:

And again if its about protecting the "innocent" then apply it to punishment in general, stand behind your belief and promote anarchy. 

Click to expand...

If views like yours are all statism has to offer (and the evidence is rapidly mounting against you), then I may just do that.

imported post

Flyer22 wrote:

Now you may say that some people would simply think that they would never get caught.  Very true.  But I'm sure that some criminals think that meeting up with an armed victim will never happen to them.

Click to expand...

My problem isn't that I think there is no deterrent effect, it's that I think the deterrent effect isn't much better than for non-capital punishment: criminals never think it will happen to them (if they did, pretty much by definition, they wouldn't commit the crime). Either is far inferior to the deterrent effect of armed citizens. You see, the difference is, with armed citizens, the criminal can decide to commit the crime and still be stopped in the act, whereas deterrent by punishment relies on the criminal being scared out of committing the crime. And it doesn't work. The death penalty exists, and yet there is murder.

I'm worried about the miscarriage of justice that will occur with irreversible punishments (death). I don't think this price is worth the small benefit of a little deterrent. I feel, if we want a deterrent effect, arm ourselves; if we want a greater deterrent effect, arm ourselves further.

imported post


If everybodyKNEW thatall murdererswould be executed within 30 days of being found guilty, the murder rate would plummet.

Yeah, but they've tried that sort of stuff before and it didn't work then. Why would now be any different?

Here's a fun factoid, how many people have been released from death row via the Dallas innocence project?

I forsee a lot of people getting railroaded and executed before anyone can find out.

imported post

Flyer22 wrote:

1. Fast-track all murder trials.
2. Allow only one (speedy)appeal.
3. Fast-track the execution if the guilty verdict is upheld.

If everybodyKNEW thatall murdererswould be executed within 30 days of being found guilty, the murder rate would plummet.

Click to expand...

To be replaced by God-only-knows how many executions of the wrongly accused and falsely convicted. With zero chance to undo the punishment.

Under your system, Cory Maye and Ryan Frederick would already be dead in their graves.

imported post

Here's the quandry: there are some crimes so sickeningly heinous that they cry out for the death penalty. Speeding executions along may cause a prosecutor to play fast and loose with the rules, though.

Here in Virginia we have recently dropped the "21 day" rule, ie; no new evidence could be presented after 21 days following conviction. Since the death penalty is FINAL then it OUGHT to be extremely hard to impose and carry out. But I just cannot go with eliminating it.

Here are some fun facts: Of the jurisdictions in the D.C. area, Washington DC has the highest crime and murder rate. D.C. has a stumble-bum police force, a corrupt correctional system and a court system that is - words fail me - a convoluted labyrinth that moves as rapidly as a glacier. There is NO death penalty, and carry of private arms of almost any kind is a felony.

Maryland has the second-highest crime rate (and the worst drivers I have ever seen). The larger PDs are pretty good and small-town departments mostly cede major investigations to the county they are in. A convicted capital felon has the choice of lethal gas or lethal injection, but the death penalty is rarely used. Open carry is prohibited and concealed carry is all but impossible to get a permit for; but obtaining a firearm is much easier than in D.C. The laws are pretty arcane - there is a criminal charge of "being a rogue and a vagabond" that sounds like it came out of a Looney Tunes, for instance - and sitting in a Maryland courtroom you would think the judges ought to wear powdered wigs. But the criminal justice system overall is a 1000 fold improvement over DC.

HERE IN VIRGINIA we have excellent police departments, the courts move along smartly and criminals MUST serve at least 85% of their sentences. Life means exactly that, and there are no cob-webs in our death chamber. Open carry is allowed and we have "Shall Issue" CHP rules. WE ALSO HAVE THE LOWEST CRIME RATE IN THE REGION.

Coincidences? I think not.......

imported post

codename_47 wrote:

If everybodyKNEW thatall murdererswould be executed within 30 days of being found guilty, the murder rate would plummet.

Yeah, but they've tried that sort of stuff before and it didn't work then. Why would now be any different?

Here's a fun factoid, how many people have been released from death row via the Dallas innocence project?

I forsee a lot of people getting railroaded and executed before anyone can find out.

Click to expand...

How do you define when laws and punishments work? There is a strong deterrent effect for all crimes when the laws are strict and are strictly enforced. One of the best examples is Singapore. We know that they take a no-nonsense attitude toward crime. All the US cities listed below have much smaller populations than Singapore does.

2005
Singapore--crimes against persons + violent property crime--5,798
Philadelphia--violent crime--21,609
Denver--violent crime--4,490

2007 raperates per 100,000
Singapore--72 [actual rapes]--("crimes against persons," which includes murder, rioting, and other crimes)--89 per 100,000
Philadelphia--67
Denver--52
Dallas--41

In 2005, Philadelphia had 1,024 actual rapes. Denver had 328. Las Vegas had 144 murders. Singapore had 21 murders, of which 17 were crimes of passion.

Singapore police website
http://www.spf.gov.sg/index.html

US crime
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14503476/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

imported post

Why don't we ask someone who knows (while we keep silent rather than removing all doubt of our intellect.) Oh, that's right, he has answered the unasked question in More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws.

It is a tragedy that so few understand the book, as many here as among Sarah Brady's distemperate termagants.

imported post

Alexcabbie wrote:

HERE IN VIRGINIA we have excellent police departments....

Click to expand...

Wow! :cuss:

I certainly do disagree with you on this point. And seeing your location listed as Alexandria.... I currently have $4 million dollar lawsuits pending right now against a former Alexandria police captain anda current Alexandria rookie. This is generally what happens when you let a rookie patrol officer play "detective".

Most of Virginia does NOT have "excellent" police departments.

imported post

Amazing what a little Heinlein will stir up. That's why I like his later stuff. It makes ya think.

imported post

Sheriff wrote:

richarcm wrote:

who are the most dangerous threat to our liberties and persuit of happiness? Cops or criminals?

Click to expand...

Cops.

Click to expand...

Just because you couldn't hack it as a cop doesn't mean you should bash them. Loser.

imported post

Alexcabbie wrote:

HERE IN VIRGINIA we have excellent police department
 

Click to expand...

You will find that a lot of the cop bashers (like "Sheriff") are either ex-cops who couldn't make it or wannabe cops who weren't even accepted. Others live in very nice areas and don't understand what crime is, therefore they think cops aren't needed. Dougie Hoffman is one of these, just plain ignorant (and a jackass to boot).:lol:

imported post

Flyer22 wrote:

codename_47 wrote:

If everybody KNEW that all murderers would be executed within 30 days of being found guilty, the murder rate would plummet.

Yeah, but they've tried that sort of stuff before and it didn't work then. Why would now be any different?

Here's a fun factoid, how many people have been released from death row via the Dallas innocence project?

I forsee a lot of people getting railroaded and executed before anyone can find out.

Click to expand...

How do you define when laws and punishments work?  There is a strong deterrent effect for all crimes when the laws are strict and are strictly enforced.  One of the best examples is Singapore.  We know that they take a no-nonsense attitude toward crime.  All the US cities listed below have much smaller populations than Singapore does.

2005
Singapore--crimes against persons + violent property crime--5,798
Philadelphia--violent crime--21,609
Denver--violent crime--4,490

2007 rape rates per 100,000
Singapore--72 [actual rapes]--("crimes against persons," which includes murder, rioting, and other crimes)--89 per 100,000
Philadelphia--67
Denver--52
Dallas--41

In 2005, Philadelphia had 1,024 actual rapes.  Denver had 328.  Las Vegas had 144 murders.  Singapore had 21 murders, of which 17 were crimes of passion.

Singapore police website
http://www.spf.gov.sg/index.html

US crime
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14503476/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

Click to expand...

Nice try, but correlation does not imply causation, and Singapore is not a free country. But I get your point: all we have to do is be like Singapore, and then we won't have crime.

But you know what?

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.

Click to expand...

Maybe you should move to Singapore, rather than fighting against our freedom (you know, you're going to end up on the wrong side doing that).

imported post

By those stats, hard discipline singapore has a higher incidence of rape...

imported post

marshaul wrote:

Nice try, but correlation does not imply causation [snip]

Click to expand...

Interesting how you use the same argument that the Left tried to use against John Lott's work.

imported post

Flyer22 wrote:

marshaul wrote:

Nice try, but correlation does not imply causation [snip]

Click to expand...

Interesting how you use the same argument that the Left tried to use against John Lott's work.

Click to expand...

Fail. "Correlation does not imply causation" is an argument used BY Lott AGAINST the left.

Leftist: Look at the low crime rates in the UK where they have lots of gun control! And look at the high crime rates in the US where we have too many guns!!!!1!!one

John Lott: Correlation does not imply causation. (win)

imported post

"Correlation does not imply causation" is a valid criticism when directed at attempts to demonstrate causation using correlation, and invalid when directed at proved causal relationships for which the correlation is merely supporting evidence.

imported post

Thank you. I hadn't commented for struggling to convey that simple idea, that you did so well.

Correlation is a valid statistical tool and statistics are a valid tool of logic. Tools can be misused and misunderstood.

Correlation and cause are not contrapositives, the relation correlation <=>cause does not hold. The relation correlation => cause does not hold. The relation cause => correlation does hold.

imported post

Doug Huffman wrote:

Thank you.  I hadn't commented for struggling to convey that simple idea, that you did so well.

Correlation is a valid statistical tool and statistics are a valid tool of logic.  Tools can be misused and misunderstood.

Correlation and cause are not contrapositives, the relation correlation <=>cause does not hold.  The relation correlation => cause does not hold.  The relation cause => correlation does hold.

Click to expand...

Doug=>tool holds as well.

imported post

nitrovic wrote:

Doug=>tool holds as well.

Click to expand...

"Up jump de debbil!" The flatfoot demonstrates his abuse of his tool. You may wash your tool in the blood of your savior as fast as you wish but not in public, please.