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Thread: First time I've ever pulled my gun from it's holster in a defensive situation:

  1. #1
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    Well, I decided to delete this post since it's probably not the kind of thing that an internet audience needs to hear, but "delete" is not an option on here, so I'll give the abbreviated version:

    I was the DD, a drunk guy decided that he didn't like something that was being said (about me, but not by me) and had a knife out.

    I thought he was kidding and as such (and being sober) I just ignored him. He proceeded to come at me with the knife. I stood, drew my .45 but kept it just outside my holster and pointed at the ground and made sure he knew that he was making a mistake. He apologized, walked outside and 10 minutes later made a smart remark implying he had a gun in his truck. Me and my roommate left shortly thereafter.

    Not a proud moment, but I don't think I did anything wrong (feel free to correct/critique).


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    DooD, you need to come to the shoot Saturday so we can hear about this. Them thar deer will wait for you :^).

    I've only used my gun once to stop a series of break-ins. But I didn't have to draw, the BGs just seeing it was enough. That was in Blacksburg too.

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    IANAL, Tactical Guru (TM) or anything else but some guy who's tried to read up on self-defense law and the like. That being said, if the bozo had a deadly weapon (knife) and was moving towards you with hostile intent, I'd say it was perfectly righteous. You probably could have gone farther, but if you didn't have to, so much the better.

    Good work. Stay safe.

    regards,

    GR

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    Based on what you wrote - sounds like a justified draw. Good work!

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    Someone can do really bad, life threatening damage with a knife. Inside 20 feet you are good as toast.

    All good in my eyes

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    No LEO would allow a threateningperson with a knife tocome closer than 20' or so without giving a command to drop the knife and if it wasdisobeyed thiswould be enough to allow them to take whatever action they deemed necessary to prevent harm to themselves. No different than pointing a gun.

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    SaltH2OHokie wrote:
    Well, I decided to delete this post since it's probably not the kind of thing that an internet audience needs to hear, but "delete" is not an option on here, so I'll give the abbreviated version:

    I was the DD, a drunk guy decided that he didn't like something that was being said (about me, but not by me) and had a knife out.

    I thought he was kidding and as such (and being sober) I just ignored him. He proceeded to come at me with the knife. I stood, drew my .45 but kept it just outside my holster and pointed at the ground and made sure he knew that he was making a mistake. He apologized, walked outside and 10 minutes later made a smart remark implying he had a gun in his truck. Me and my roommate left shortly thereafter.

    Not a proud moment, but I don't think I did anything wrong (feel free to correct/critique).

    Its easy to monday morning quarter back stuff like this but somethings to think about.

    You did well your still breathing and still alive with no more cuts or bruises then you came with. Somethings to think about.

    You do realize that pulling a gun out is brandishing. The man or his friends could have easily called the police stating that there was a maniac with a gun.

    If so do you know what AOJP means?

    Ability, Oppurtunity, Jeopardy, Preclussion

    Ability- Did the man have the ability (in your case knife Yes)

    Oppurtunity-Range of proximity (inside your reactionary gap?) You never said how far

    Jeopardy-was this man a potential danger or actual danger?

    Preclussion-is the after thought of being sued.

    If the man had AOJ then personally I would have ended it right there. Yes your alive and nobodies shot, however, next time you might not be.

    Maybe you should also consider some other tools as well to have with you. If you only carry a hammer then all you can do is pound nails. The reason your carrying a handgun for protection. By pulling it out you are using deadly force. However, you did not shoot. I would caution anybody from doing what you did if your not willing to drop the hammer. That is if he was inside your reactionary gap and he met the jeopardy requirement.

    Pepper spray, High intesity light, Taser,etc.....


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    Works for me.

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    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    You do realize that pulling a gun out is brandishing. The man or his friends could have easily called the police stating that there was a maniac with a gun.

    WRONG! Your statement implies that the OP did something wrong by bringing his defensive firearm into action.

    The attacker had a knife and was moving towards him by his statement. Displaying his handgun in that manner is not brandishing. It is justified self-defense, whether or not he pulled the trigger.

    Let's not put the thought in people's mind that they are committing the crime of Brandishing when they use their handgun in a self-defense situation.
    James Reynolds

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    ProShooter wrote:
    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    You do realize that pulling a gun out is brandishing. The man or his friends could have easily called the police stating that there was a maniac with a gun.

    WRONG! Your statement implies that the OP did something wrong by bringing his defensive firearm into action.

    The attacker had a knife and was moving towards him by his statement. Displaying his handgun in that manner is not brandishing. It is justified self-defense, whether or not he pulled the trigger.

    Let's not put the thought in people's mind that they are committing the crime of Brandishing when they use their handgun in a self-defense situation.

    Your absolutly right and wrong!

    "Let's not put the thought in people's mind that they are committing the crime of Brandishing when they use their handgun in a self-defense situation."

    From who's Point of view?
    The drunk guy who just had a gun pulled on him and whos 9 other friends will agree that he was not being threatening? The problem is there is really no right answer to these questions. Ask for thoughts and opinions I gave another opinion and another possible outcome.

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    tripledipper wrote:
    No LEO would allow a threateningÂ*person with a knife toÂ*come closer than 20' or so without giving a command to drop the knife and if it wasÂ*disobeyed thisÂ*would be enough to allow them to take whatever action they deemed necessary to prevent harm to themselves.Â* No different than pointing a gun.Â*
    Big +1
    Obviously, you were w/in your rights to draw and you did quite well in my mind, BUT ...

    Since you asked for criticism, there are three "S's" that should be avoided and NEVER combined.
    1) with Stupid People: This guy is obviously a bad seed to the core. Drunk or not. Learn to spot them.
    2) in Stupid Places: I love drinking and a good drunken party of debauchery, but I've learned to do it where I pretty much know everyone.
    3) doing Stupid things: You're clear on this one.

    I know you're probably in college and I violated them all when I was. Usually, I had a lot of fun doing it, but it got me in a few similar, poor situations.

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    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    You do realize that pulling a gun out is brandishing. The man or his friends could have easily called the police stating that there was a maniac with a gun.

    WRONG! Your statement implies that the OP did something wrong by bringing his defensive firearm into action.

    The attacker had a knife and was moving towards him by his statement. Displaying his handgun in that manner is not brandishing. It is justified self-defense, whether or not he pulled the trigger.

    Let's not put the thought in people's mind that they are committing the crime of Brandishing when they use their handgun in a self-defense situation.

    Your absolutly right and wrong!

    "Let's not put the thought in people's mind that they are committing the crime of Brandishing when they use their handgun in a self-defense situation."

    From who's Point of view?
    The drunk guy who just had a gun pulled on him and whos 9 other friends will agree that he was not being threatening? The problem is there is really no right answer to these questions. Ask for thoughts and opinions I gave another opinion and another possible outcome.
    From the point of view of the OP. You can't worry about what someone's friends may try to say in court when your life is threatened. The OP's life was threatened by a drunk approaching him with a knife. I think anyone who reads that can agree that it was a justified use of his defensive handgun.
    James Reynolds

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    ProShooter wrote:
    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    You do realize that pulling a gun out is brandishing. The man or his friends could have easily called the police stating that there was a maniac with a gun.

    WRONG! Your statement implies that the OP did something wrong by bringing his defensive firearm into action.

    The attacker had a knife and was moving towards him by his statement. Displaying his handgun in that manner is not brandishing. It is justified self-defense, whether or not he pulled the trigger.

    Let's not put the thought in people's mind that they are committing the crime of Brandishing when they use their handgun in a self-defense situation.

    Your absolutly right and wrong!

    "Let's not put the thought in people's mind that they are committing the crime of Brandishing when they use their handgun in a self-defense situation."

    From who's Point of view?
    The drunk guy who just had a gun pulled on him and whos 9 other friends will agree that he was not being threatening? The problem is there is really no right answer to these questions. Ask for thoughts and opinions I gave another opinion and another possible outcome.
    From the point of view of the OP. You can't worry about what someone's friends may try to say in court when your life is threatened. The OP's life was threatened by a drunk approaching him with a knife. I think anyone who reads that can agree that it was a justified use of his defensive handgun.
    Again your right to an extent!

    Now we get into the Preclussion of ones actions. In this case nothing happend, and nobody was hurt or facing charges (yet).

    But I read a recent post on this forum who pulled a gun on somebody ina road rage incident and was detained by police. Again, did the bad guy have the Ability (from the drivers perspective he did. Did he have the Oppurtunity (well according to the police he did not) but the driver didn't know what the person behind him had. Was there Jeopardy (the driver sure thought so), Preclussion-Driver was detained police where called.


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    I think you did a good job! I am a 150lb 6' tall man and let me tell you if someone is rushing towards me with a knife I would have drew on them too. Being drunk is not an excuse! Luckily he backed down and you were not forced to further engage. Good job man! Well handled. No one was hurt and the situation was resolved. I would call that a successful encounter

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    I know what you guys are thinking and your reading way to much into this.

    Even if your 100% justfied and you shoot Usama bin Laden self defense, coming at you ith an RPG screaming death to all americans, you are still being charged in VA for Murder in 2nd degree.

    If guns are pulled "Most LIKELY" if the police are involved somebodies getting charged with something or detained or are going to have pay somekind of fee.

    With all these on the table now, a firearm is used only for protection of life or grave bodily injury. A smart person knows thatif one isgoing to carry one, you should know when, how, why you should use it. Personally, a man coming at me with who doesn't cease with a knife in his handsif hes inside my reactionary gap is going to get shot if I can deploy my gun fast enough.

    The OP asked for advice and I gave mine. The OP did everything right hes still breathing and hes not charged with anything. However, since he asked for advice I will give you this. In essence he pulled his gun and did nothing "yes" hes alive, but maybe next time he maybe a statistic.

    Shoot the tueller drill if you have not already done one!

    Know what reactionary gap means and know yours!

    Do some research on OODA loop, AOJP, maybe attend a advance shooting course that will add some needed stress to help you understand your self better.

    Most people carry a gun and a gun only, well I go back to my orginal saying. If you only carry a hammer(gun) all you can do is pound nails(use deadly force).

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    The only thing I would advise is, should a similar encounter occur to you ...

    Call 911 AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and be the FIRST (hopefully only) person to report the incident and go ON RECORD with your version of the story.

    You can be sure that if the 'other guy' (or one of his buddies) calls, he will have a different version.

    If a person is genuinely threatening enough to warrant deadly force, or the threat thereof, you should be on the record as making a report, possibly filing charges.

    Do it for the next guy this fellow comes after with a knife.

    Just my $.02

    Egg




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    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    Most people carry a gun and a gun only, well I go back to my orginal saying. If you only carry a hammer(gun) all you can do is pound nails(use deadly force).
    I feared for my life and I stopped the threat. Plain and simple.

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    TheEggman wrote:
    The only thing I would advise is, should a similar encounter occur to you ...

    Call 911 AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and be the FIRST (hopefully only) person to report the incident and go ON RECORD with your version of the story.

    You can be sure that if the 'other guy' (or one of his buddies) calls, he will have a different version.

    If a person is genuinely threatening enough to warrant deadly force, or the threat thereof, you should be on the record as making a report, possibly filing charges.

    Do it for the next guy this fellow comes after with a knife.

    Just my $.02

    Egg



    I agree with this as well.

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    Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:
    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    Most people carry a gun and a gun only, well I go back to my orginal saying. If you only carry a hammer(gun) all you can do is pound nails(use deadly force).
    I feared for my life and I stopped the threat. Plain and simple.
    And your right. In that situation it ended the matter; however, the guy was upset and then threatened him with a gun in his truck.Again, nothing happend, but now the situation has escalated.

    What would the OP have done if the guy had gone back to his truck and grabbed his gun? I have a feeling the OP would say I would shoot. Well now the situation isworse for the OP. However, he did not shoot when he was holding a knife. Even thought knife inside 21 feet=probably worse then a bad guy with a gun. This goes back again to my opinion.



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    TheEggman wrote:
    The only thing I would advise is, should a similar encounter occur to you ...

    Call 911 AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and be the FIRST (hopefully only) person to report the incident and go ON RECORD with your version of the story.

    You can be sure that if the 'other guy' (or one of his buddies) calls, he will have a different version.

    If a person is genuinely threatening enough to warrant deadly force, or the threat thereof, you should be on the record as making a report, possibly filing charges.

    Do it for the next guy this fellow comes after with a knife.

    Just my $.02

    Egg



    I second what Eggman has stated, he was brandishing the knife in a threatning mannor and advancing. And something no one else picked up on, you stated he "walked outside and 10 minutes later made a smart remark implying he had a gun in his truck". Why you should have called the police, he is obviously 1)concealing a firearm while intoxicated, 2) about to drink and drive with said firearm. Two additional reasons to get him off the streets!

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    Infidel wrote:
    TheEggman wrote:
    The only thing I would advise is, should a similar encounter occur to you ...

    Call 911 AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and be the FIRST (hopefully only) person to report the incident and go ON RECORD with your version of the story.

    You can be sure that if the 'other guy' (or one of his buddies) calls, he will have a different version.

    If a person is genuinely threatening enough to warrant deadly force, or the threat thereof, you should be on the record as making a report, possibly filing charges.

    Do it for the next guy this fellow comes after with a knife.

    Just my $.02

    Egg



    I second what Eggman has stated, he was brandishing the knife in a threatning mannor and advancing. And something no one else picked up on, you stated he "walked outside and 10 minutes later made a smart remark implying he had a gun in his truck". Why you should have called the police, he is obviously 1)concealing a firearm while intoxicated, 2) about to drink and drive with said firearm. Two additional reasons to get him off the streets!
    I agree on both accounts

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    Some more background: I was at a good friend's house, only maybe 10 people there, total, we'd all grilled steaks earlier and were watching the game, no heavy drinking (but in case apparently heavy enough to do something stupid. Guy who pulled the knife is apparently a good friend of the fella who's place we were at; I just didn't know him. Further, I thought he was kidding, and still think he was half kidding. He wasn't fuming mad (which is why I was confused), I think he was just "Billy Bad A$$" and decided he needed to look good for either his friends or some ladies...The comment he made later was again made in a smart tone, not a threatening tone (again, just think he was asserting his badassedness by saying I wasn't the only one with a gun, he made no move to go get it and he wasn't leaving), but either way I said "time to leave." I'm not going to involve the police.

    As to brandishing, I understand the point being made that in VA even a justified illegal action can be charged and then you have to, well, justify it :? Don't think that'll ever come into play here.

    As was said in my OP, I would have deleted it if I could...I typed it because I was anxious for some reassurance but then realized it didn't really matter, what's done is done, but thanks for the feedback.

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    SaltH2OHokie wrote:
    Some more background: I was at a good friend's house, only maybe 10 people there, total, we'd all grilled steaks earlier and were watching the game, no heavy drinking (but in case apparently heavy enough to do something stupid. Guy who pulled the knife is apparently a good friend of the fella who's place we were at; I just didn't know him. Further, I thought he was kidding, and still think he was half kidding. He wasn't fuming mad (which is why I was confused), I think he was just "Billy Bad A$$" and decided he needed to look good for either his friends or some ladies...The comment he made later was again made in a smart tone, not a threatening tone (again, just think he was asserting his badassedness by saying I wasn't the only one with a gun, he made no move to go get it and he wasn't leaving), but either way I said "time to leave." I'm not going to involve the police.

    As to brandishing, I understand the point being made that in VA even a justified illegal action can be charged and then you have to, well, justify it :? Don't think that'll ever come into play here.

    As was said in my OP, I would have deleted it if I could...I typed it because I was anxious for some reassurance but then realized it didn't really matter, what's done is done, but thanks for the feedback.

    Again not to harp on you, but based on what you just said. Regardless of what happen. IMHO Brandashing occured.

    Only you know the answer to these questions but if you where not in fear of grievous bodily harm or getting killed than I would classify this as brandashing. Because you stated

    "Further, I thought he was kidding, and still think he was half kidding. He wasn't fuming mad (which is why I was confused), I think he was just "Billy Bad A$$" and decided he needed to look good for either his friends or some ladies..."

    Just for future refference if the cops did show up and you told them that. You could have gotten introuble. Thats when the don't talk to the police thing comes to play.

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    I'm using the power of hindsight to say that I think he was half kidding, based on his reaction AFTER he'd come toward me with a knife in his hand. I'm not worried about this incident (from a legal standpoint) and I reckon I'll take any future problems as they come.

    Thanks
    Ryan


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    rob99vmi04 wrote:
    Again not to harp on you, but based on what you just said. Regardless of what happen. IMHO Brandashing occured.

    I'm going to be that silly guy who actualy pulls the legal cite and uses it in my point of arguement rather than just what I've heard around the campfire.

    From the Virginia COmmonwealth LIC:

    § 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

    A manwho is verbally threatening another and introduces a knife into the verbal confrontation is what is known as being thehttp://www.roanokeva.gov/85256A8D0062AF37/vwContentByKey/N254VM2V730SALYEN"" primary agressor.

    In response to having a knife drawn and having said primary agressor ADVANCING upon another, the introduction of a firearm by the threatened party would negate any charge of Brandishing as defined by the law of the commonwealth (shown above.)

    As stated in the law cite; it is not brandishing if the firearm owner felt he was in fearof grevious bodily injury and/or death. Yes,the OPsaidhe thought the drunkard was joking AFTER THE INCIDENT, but that obviouslywasn't the case at the exact momentat which it happened.



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