Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel
Regular Member
imported post
Infidel wrote:
Infidel wrote:
I agree on both accounts
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First time I've ever pulled my gun from it's holster in a defensive situation:
- Thread starter SaltH2OHokie
- Start date
SaltH2OHokie
Regular Member
imported post
Some more background: I was at a good friend's house, only maybe 10 people there, total, we'd all grilled steaks earlier and were watching the game, no heavy drinking (but in case apparently heavy enough to do something stupid. Guy who pulled the knife is apparently a good friend of the fella who's place we were at; I just didn't know him. Further, I thought he was kidding, and still think he was half kidding. He wasn't fuming mad (which is why I was confused), I think he was just "Billy Bad A$$" and decided he needed to look good for either his friends or some ladies...The comment he made later was again made in a smart tone, not a threatening tone (again, just think he was asserting his badassedness by saying I wasn't the only one with a gun, he made no move to go get it and he wasn't leaving), but either way I said "time to leave." I'm not going to involve the police.
As to brandishing, I understand the point being made that in VA even a justified illegal action can be charged and then you have to, well, justify it :? Don't think that'll ever come into play here.
As was said in my OP, I would have deleted it if I could...I typed it because I was anxious for some reassurance but then realized it didn't really matter, what's done is done, but thanks for the feedback.
Some more background: I was at a good friend's house, only maybe 10 people there, total, we'd all grilled steaks earlier and were watching the game, no heavy drinking (but in case apparently heavy enough to do something stupid. Guy who pulled the knife is apparently a good friend of the fella who's place we were at; I just didn't know him. Further, I thought he was kidding, and still think he was half kidding. He wasn't fuming mad (which is why I was confused), I think he was just "Billy Bad A$$" and decided he needed to look good for either his friends or some ladies...The comment he made later was again made in a smart tone, not a threatening tone (again, just think he was asserting his badassedness by saying I wasn't the only one with a gun, he made no move to go get it and he wasn't leaving), but either way I said "time to leave." I'm not going to involve the police.
As to brandishing, I understand the point being made that in VA even a justified illegal action can be charged and then you have to, well, justify it :? Don't think that'll ever come into play here.
As was said in my OP, I would have deleted it if I could...I typed it because I was anxious for some reassurance but then realized it didn't really matter, what's done is done, but thanks for the feedback.
rob99vmi04
Regular Member
imported post
SaltH2OHokie wrote:
Again not to harp on you, but based on what you just said. Regardless of what happen. IMHO Brandashing occured.
Only you know the answer to these questions but if you where not in fear of grievous bodily harm or getting killed than I would classify this as brandashing. Because you stated
"Further, I thought he was kidding, and still think he was half kidding. He wasn't fuming mad (which is why I was confused), I think he was just "Billy Bad A$$" and decided he needed to look good for either his friends or some ladies..."
Just for future refference if the cops did show up and you told them that. You could have gotten introuble. Thats when the don't talk to the police thing comes to play.
SaltH2OHokie wrote:
Again not to harp on you, but based on what you just said. Regardless of what happen. IMHO Brandashing occured.
Only you know the answer to these questions but if you where not in fear of grievous bodily harm or getting killed than I would classify this as brandashing. Because you stated
"Further, I thought he was kidding, and still think he was half kidding. He wasn't fuming mad (which is why I was confused), I think he was just "Billy Bad A$$" and decided he needed to look good for either his friends or some ladies..."
Just for future refference if the cops did show up and you told them that. You could have gotten introuble. Thats when the don't talk to the police thing comes to play.
SaltH2OHokie
Regular Member
imported post
I'm using the power of hindsight to say that I think he was half kidding, based on his reaction AFTER he'd come toward me with a knife in his hand. I'm not worried about this incident (from a legal standpoint) and I reckon I'll take any future problems as they come.
Thanks
Ryan
I'm using the power of hindsight to say that I think he was half kidding, based on his reaction AFTER he'd come toward me with a knife in his hand. I'm not worried about this incident (from a legal standpoint) and I reckon I'll take any future problems as they come.
Thanks
Ryan
ChinChin
Regular Member
imported post
rob99vmi04 wrote:
I'm going to be that silly guy who actualy pulls the legal cite and uses it in my point of arguement rather than just what I've heard around the campfire.
From the Virginia COmmonwealth LIC:
§ 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
A manwho is verbally threatening another and introduces a knife into the verbal confrontation is what is known as being thehttp://www.roanokeva.gov/85256A8D0062AF37/vwContentByKey/N254VM2V730SALYEN"" primary agressor.
In response to having a knife drawn and having said primary agressor ADVANCING upon another, the introduction of a firearm by the threatened party would negate any charge of Brandishing as defined by the law of the commonwealth (shown above.)
As stated in the law cite; it is not brandishing if the firearm owner felt he was in fearof grevious bodily injury and/or death. Yes,the OPsaidhe thought the drunkard was joking AFTER THE INCIDENT, but that obviouslywasn't the case at the exact momentat which it happened.
rob99vmi04 wrote:
I'm going to be that silly guy who actualy pulls the legal cite and uses it in my point of arguement rather than just what I've heard around the campfire.
From the Virginia COmmonwealth LIC:
§ 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
A manwho is verbally threatening another and introduces a knife into the verbal confrontation is what is known as being thehttp://www.roanokeva.gov/85256A8D0062AF37/vwContentByKey/N254VM2V730SALYEN"" primary agressor.
In response to having a knife drawn and having said primary agressor ADVANCING upon another, the introduction of a firearm by the threatened party would negate any charge of Brandishing as defined by the law of the commonwealth (shown above.)
As stated in the law cite; it is not brandishing if the firearm owner felt he was in fearof grevious bodily injury and/or death. Yes,the OPsaidhe thought the drunkard was joking AFTER THE INCIDENT, but that obviouslywasn't the case at the exact momentat which it happened.
rob99vmi04
Regular Member
imported post
ChinChin wrote:
Your absolutly correct. However, what this really fails to cover is hows its articulated and by whom.
If the OP told somebody after this occurred that he thought the guy was "joking around" thats bad.Police weren't there, butI think if a police officer heard theOP say Ipulled a gun but "I now think the guy wasjoking around", I would think that he runs the possibility evena big probability of gettingarrested for brandashing. This goes back to saying nothing you say can be used for you in a court of law but only against you. Lets face it Facts are skewed, and Perception's are percieved as Facts!
Just as an FYI "However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. " Burden of proof still rests on you the guy who pulled the gun.
ChinChin wrote:
Your absolutly correct. However, what this really fails to cover is hows its articulated and by whom.
If the OP told somebody after this occurred that he thought the guy was "joking around" thats bad.Police weren't there, butI think if a police officer heard theOP say Ipulled a gun but "I now think the guy wasjoking around", I would think that he runs the possibility evena big probability of gettingarrested for brandashing. This goes back to saying nothing you say can be used for you in a court of law but only against you. Lets face it Facts are skewed, and Perception's are percieved as Facts!
Just as an FYI "However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. " Burden of proof still rests on you the guy who pulled the gun.
SaltH2OHokie
Regular Member
imported post
Just to clear one thing up, if the police were involved last night I would have a.) not said anything, b.) called a lawyer and c.) if and when I did start giving my side of the story it certainly wouldn't have included any notion of my after the event analysis concluding that he was joking...
Luckily no police were involved.
Just to clear one thing up, if the police were involved last night I would have a.) not said anything, b.) called a lawyer and c.) if and when I did start giving my side of the story it certainly wouldn't have included any notion of my after the event analysis concluding that he was joking...
Luckily no police were involved.
rob99vmi04
Regular Member
imported post
SaltH2OHokie wrote:
Its good you know what to do. Whats really funny is even experienced shooters have a tendency to know what to do, but if you believe in the mind turns to mush theory then some don't actually do it.If you ever get a chance go to a course that has force on force training if you haven't already been to one. After a senario, whenyoudiscussed what happen in the senario,try toremember to say "I want to speak to my lawyer" Its amazing how many people just start re-capping the senario to anybodyeven in a controlled enviorment after just simunution training.
SaltH2OHokie wrote:
Its good you know what to do. Whats really funny is even experienced shooters have a tendency to know what to do, but if you believe in the mind turns to mush theory then some don't actually do it.If you ever get a chance go to a course that has force on force training if you haven't already been to one. After a senario, whenyoudiscussed what happen in the senario,try toremember to say "I want to speak to my lawyer" Its amazing how many people just start re-capping the senario to anybodyeven in a controlled enviorment after just simunution training.
buster81
Regular Member
imported post
rob99vmi04 wrote:
rob99vmi04 wrote:
I'm a little puzzled by this. Are you saying thatif I defend my life as defined by the law, I'll be charged with murder?
TheEggman
Regular Member
imported post
buster81 wrote:
It's a good idea to keep a gun-friendly atty. on retainer if you carry.
(It's OK to hate lawyers, but you have to love your own for pulling all the sneaky tricks you hate other people's lawyers for.)
buster81 wrote:
Homicide in VA is a automatic 2nd Degree murder charge. A DA might decide to drop the charge immediately after they hear the story, but you will still be charged. It may never make it to a Grand Jury or past arraignment, but again, the charge itself is automatic. (OSIU)
It's a good idea to keep a gun-friendly atty. on retainer if you carry.
(It's OK to hate lawyers, but you have to love your own for pulling all the sneaky tricks you hate other people's lawyers for.)
rob99vmi04
Regular Member
imported post
buster81 wrote:
I'm pretty sure in VA regardless of situation everything is treated as Second Degree Murder. The shooter has to plead self defense.
I forget the cases but I'll check my notes and get back to you.
I'll have to go back and check I'm not even sure If I spelled the names right.
buster81 wrote:
I'm pretty sure in VA regardless of situation everything is treated as Second Degree Murder. The shooter has to plead self defense.
I forget the cases but I'll check my notes and get back to you.
I'll have to go back and check I'm not even sure If I spelled the names right.
Glock27Bill
Regular Member
imported post
TheEggman wrote:
Exactly!!
I was surprised to get this far down the post before someone pointed this out.
Do you really want the cops showing up because the bad guy called them stating that you puled a gun on him, but did not feel so threatened afterwards to even report it?
If I EVER have to pull my gun (I hope I never do), I willbe the FIRST tocall the cops and file a report.
TheEggman wrote:
Exactly!!
I was surprised to get this far down the post before someone pointed this out.
Do you really want the cops showing up because the bad guy called them stating that you puled a gun on him, but did not feel so threatened afterwards to even report it?
If I EVER have to pull my gun (I hope I never do), I willbe the FIRST tocall the cops and file a report.
ChinChin
Regular Member
imported post
TheEggman wrote:
Please to be providing a Cite to back up this claim stated as fact.
The below news stories would seem to refute your claims. Nowhere in any of the cites below does it state 2nd degree murder was ever considered; and in many it says no charges were filed.
1) Dave Fielding (Richmond Virginia): Shot a criminal in self defense who attempted to rob his store with a BB gun. Robber died; Mr. Fielding never charged.
Source: http://pharrout.com/~hillsand/2007/10/03/more-on-the-shooting/
2) Adam Stone (Goochland Virginia): Shot and killed an intruder to his Goochland home. He has yet to be charged.
Source: http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-07-26-0080.html
3) Unnamed victim shot a man attempting to rob them at the Liberty Estates apartment complex on Cunningham Avenue; Hampton VA.
Source: http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/VA.html
4) Shop Owner of Dominick's Pizza and Pasta shoot and kills robber.The article says there are no charges.
Source: http://www.wvec.com/news/topstories/stories/wvec_local_062808_pizza_shop_employee_kills_thief.51300a5.html
5) Springfield Virginia: Unnamed Security guard (bouncer) kills a spanish guy who jumped him outside of the bar. No charges filed.
Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/21/AR2008022102867.html
TheEggman wrote:
Please to be providing a Cite to back up this claim stated as fact.
The below news stories would seem to refute your claims. Nowhere in any of the cites below does it state 2nd degree murder was ever considered; and in many it says no charges were filed.
1) Dave Fielding (Richmond Virginia): Shot a criminal in self defense who attempted to rob his store with a BB gun. Robber died; Mr. Fielding never charged.
Source: http://pharrout.com/~hillsand/2007/10/03/more-on-the-shooting/
2) Adam Stone (Goochland Virginia): Shot and killed an intruder to his Goochland home. He has yet to be charged.
Source: http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-07-26-0080.html
3) Unnamed victim shot a man attempting to rob them at the Liberty Estates apartment complex on Cunningham Avenue; Hampton VA.
Source: http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/VA.html
4) Shop Owner of Dominick's Pizza and Pasta shoot and kills robber.The article says there are no charges.
Source: http://www.wvec.com/news/topstories/stories/wvec_local_062808_pizza_shop_employee_kills_thief.51300a5.html
5) Springfield Virginia: Unnamed Security guard (bouncer) kills a spanish guy who jumped him outside of the bar. No charges filed.
Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/21/AR2008022102867.html
Infidel
Regular Member
imported post
Glock27Bill wrote:
Glock27Bill wrote:
Digital recorders work well too! I carry mine in the spare magazine pouch on my holster.
rob99vmi04
Regular Member
imported post
ChinChin wrote:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-33
§ 18.2-33. Felony homicide defined; punishment.
The killing of one accidentally, contrary to the intention of the parties, while in the prosecution of some felonious act other than those specified in §§ 18.2-31 and 18.2-32, is murder of the second degree and is punishable by confinement in a state correctional facility for not less than five years nor more than forty years.
(1975, cc. 14, 15; 1999, c. 282.)
ChinChin wrote:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-33
§ 18.2-33. Felony homicide defined; punishment.
The killing of one accidentally, contrary to the intention of the parties, while in the prosecution of some felonious act other than those specified in §§ 18.2-31 and 18.2-32, is murder of the second degree and is punishable by confinement in a state correctional facility for not less than five years nor more than forty years.
(1975, cc. 14, 15; 1999, c. 282.)
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
imported post
rob99vmi04 wrote:
Once again, I don't know where the idea came from that it's preferable to shoot than to brandish, but it seems insane.
rob99vmi04 wrote:
I don't know why some folks are so obsessed with shooting. I see nothing wrong with drawing and successfully halting a threat without firing a shot. It may not be the popular "tactical" thing to do these days, but I don't see how you can improve upon a situation where nobody was hurt. Giving "advice" contrary to such a positive result seems begging for somebody to be hurt. Suffice it to say I disagree with you entirely. You may stand on the high ground legally speaking, but morally and ethically the OP is head and shoulders above you for correctly choosing to not take a man's life in a circumstance where the "brandished" firearm was enough to stop a threat.
Once again, I don't know where the idea came from that it's preferable to shoot than to brandish, but it seems insane.
cmartin7864
Regular Member
imported post
Glock27Bill wrote:
Glock27Bill wrote:
+100000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cmartin7864
Regular Member
imported post
rob99vmi04 wrote:
rob99vmi04 wrote:
Ok I don't see how this applies to this situation....Felony homicide is committed when you accidentatly kill someone while committing a felony. i.e. Robbing a store and the gun accidentaly goes off...
TFred
Regular Member
imported post
We seem to be missing a key point here. And IANAL, so perhaps this seemingly logical key point has no place in Virginia case law. Wouldn't be the first time. :shock:
The law cited earlier treats "point", "hold", and "brandish" equally, so it would appear any weapon draw would meet this definition, since you must hold it after you draw it. The way the law is written, there is no need for opinion, if you are holding a weapon in your hand, then it counts.
But what hasn't been plainly restated is that pointing, holding, or brandishing is not an illegal act if you are doing it "while engaged in ... self-defense".
So what if you are brandishing. "Brandishing" is not automatically a dirty word. If you are brandishing while engaging a threat, then it is not illegal to do so.
The opinion only comes in on whether the person was properly engaged in excusable or justafiable self-defense. That is what determines whether brandishing (or holding, or pointing) is legal or not.
TFred
We seem to be missing a key point here. And IANAL, so perhaps this seemingly logical key point has no place in Virginia case law. Wouldn't be the first time. :shock:
The law cited earlier treats "point", "hold", and "brandish" equally, so it would appear any weapon draw would meet this definition, since you must hold it after you draw it. The way the law is written, there is no need for opinion, if you are holding a weapon in your hand, then it counts.
But what hasn't been plainly restated is that pointing, holding, or brandishing is not an illegal act if you are doing it "while engaged in ... self-defense".
So what if you are brandishing. "Brandishing" is not automatically a dirty word. If you are brandishing while engaging a threat, then it is not illegal to do so.
The opinion only comes in on whether the person was properly engaged in excusable or justafiable self-defense. That is what determines whether brandishing (or holding, or pointing) is legal or not.
TFred
rob99vmi04
Regular Member
imported post
marshaul wrote:
However, lets move on to next time.
Pulling a gun out on somebody you are using lethal force anyway you cut it.
From a tactics standpoint a man with a knife who is threatening you is a threat. However, if hes within a certain distance that threat becomes absolutly real. The national excepted distance IIRC is about 21 feet 7 yards. The average person can cross 21 feet faster than you can get your gun out of your holster and Fire only one shot. Most violent encounters occur much closer than 7 yards. I.E. 10 feet and under if not closer. If a man with a knife is advancing at me within this distance hes already well within my reactionary gap. Unless he discontinues his advance, I will be shooting to stop the threat. Hestiation even for a moment can lead to worse problems.
"Once again, I don't know where the idea came from that it's preferable to shoot than to brandish, but it seems insane." The idea came from people getting killed search 21 foot drill, 21 feet drill, Tueller Drill.
marshaul wrote:
Ultimately everybody came out unscathed which in essence makes what happend the right move.
However, lets move on to next time.
Pulling a gun out on somebody you are using lethal force anyway you cut it.
From a tactics standpoint a man with a knife who is threatening you is a threat. However, if hes within a certain distance that threat becomes absolutly real. The national excepted distance IIRC is about 21 feet 7 yards. The average person can cross 21 feet faster than you can get your gun out of your holster and Fire only one shot. Most violent encounters occur much closer than 7 yards. I.E. 10 feet and under if not closer. If a man with a knife is advancing at me within this distance hes already well within my reactionary gap. Unless he discontinues his advance, I will be shooting to stop the threat. Hestiation even for a moment can lead to worse problems.
"Once again, I don't know where the idea came from that it's preferable to shoot than to brandish, but it seems insane." The idea came from people getting killed search 21 foot drill, 21 feet drill, Tueller Drill.