First time I've ever pulled my gun from it's holster in a defensive situation:

ChinChin · Nov 14, 2008

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rob99vmi04 wrote:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-33

§ 18.2-33. Felony homicide defined; punishment.

The killing of one accidentally, contrary to the intention of the parties, while in the prosecution of some felonious act other than those specified in §§ 18.2-31 and 18.2-32, is murder of the second degree and is punishable by confinement in a state correctional facility for not less than five years nor more than forty years.

(1975, cc. 14, 15; 1999, c. 282.)

I'm not confident you understand what you posted.

This law pertains to a charge of 2nd degree Murder *IF* you kill somebody while committing a felony criminal act OTHER THAN the ones included in the attached links.

There is no felony committed if you kill a home invader breaking into your own home.

There is no felony committed if you kill a robber who has a gun pointed at you and demands money.

There is no felony committed if you kill a carjacker who tries to pull you out of your own car.

I suppose. . .If you were an ex-con who had a firearm and killed somebody in self defense, then yes that law you provided WOULD apply as possession of a firearm by an ex-con is a felony.

Hell, even in the OP's original account, brandishing is a misdemeanor and had he shot and killed the knife wielding drunkard, this law wouldn't be applicable as Brandishing of a firearm is not a "felonious act " as required in the law cite you provided.

The law cite you provided is not applicable to the OP’s original account of events, as there was no felonious act committed by him during the altercation.

ChinChin · Nov 14, 2008

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Double tap; please to excuse!

rob99vmi04 · Nov 14, 2008

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ChinChin wrote:

Double tap; please to excuse!

"while in the prosecution of some felonious act other than those specified in"

Yeah I missed this line. My bad! and I looked for it under disparity of force, self defense couldn't find anything. However, I'm almost positive that in VA if you take a life its treated as second degree murder. Again they have the option to drop it, but its still treated as such a charge. Charge not meaning Guility.

cmartin7864 · Nov 14, 2008

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rob99vmi04 wrote:

ChinChin wrote:

Double tap; please to excuse!

Click to expand...

"while in the prosecution of some felonious act other than those specified in"

Yeah I missed this line. My bad! and I looked for it under disparity of force, self defense couldn't find anything. However, I'm almost positive that in VA if you take a life its treated as second degree murder. Again they have the option to drop it, but its still treated as such a charge. Charge not meaning Guility.

Virginia has no criminal self defense statute. What Virginia has is a strong case law and common law on self defense.

"[A] person assaulted while in the dischargeof a lawful act, and reasonably apprehendingthat his assailant will do him bodily harm,has the right to repel the assault by allthe force he deems necessary, and is notcompelled to retreat from his assailant, but may, in turn, become the assailant, inflicting bodily wounds until his person is out of danger." (Dodson v. Commonwealth, 159 Va. 976, 979, 167 S.E. 260, 260, 1933)

sailer · Nov 14, 2008

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SaltH2OHokie wrote:

As was said in my OP, I would have deleted it if I could...I typed it because I was anxious for some reassurance but then realized it didn't really matter, what's done is done, but thanks for the feedback.

Sadly you'll get little reassurance here (or any other firearms forum I've seen). What you'll get a lot more of, is people eager to show how much smarter than you they are, by nit-picking your every thought, word and deed.

If I ever need to defend myself, the last thing I'll do is recount the experience on an Internet forum.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

I'm glad it ended well; good on you for showing restraint.

Tomahawk · Nov 14, 2008

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mariner wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

As was said in my OP, I would have deleted it if I could...I typed it because I was anxious for some reassurance but then realized it didn't really matter, what's done is done, but thanks for the feedback.

Click to expand...

Sadly you'll get little reassurance here (or any other firearms forum I've seen). What you'll get a lot more of, is people eager to show how much smarter than you they are, by nit-picking your every thought, word and deed.

If I ever need to defend myself, the last thing I'll do is recount the experience on an Internet forum.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

I'm glad it ended well; good on you for showing restraint.

+1

Way too much arm chair quarterbacking here. At least one poster has been reasonable and posted pertinent code.

As for OODA loop, Tueller drill, and other such technobabble, the OP actually had to live through the real thing and he stopped the threat without escalating it to actual violence. Sounds good to me, as told by the OP. Doubting him and telling him he should have killed a man is extreme to say the least. Here's to hoping the rest of us don't have to face that situation anytime soon.

Citizen · Nov 14, 2008

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If nothing else, the varied opinions here demonstratesome folksneed to dig deeper into the tactical and legal angles of armed self-defense.

I've read widely and still consider that I've only scratched the surface.

+1 to ChinChin for the cite.

+1 to Mariner for pointing out that one should keep the story off the forum.

+1 to all the other good suggestions.

SaltH2OHokie · Nov 14, 2008

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Well now that the discussion has run its course, someone with the power can certainly delete it without any objection from me.

riverrat10k · Nov 14, 2008

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The fella here in Richmond at the Baskin Robbins who shot a guy after a robbery was presented to the grand jury by the prosecutor. Manslaughter I believe, but it may have been 2nd degree. The grand jury refused to indict.

river

savery · Nov 14, 2008

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Tomahawk wrote:

mariner wrote:

SaltH2OHokie wrote:

As was said in my OP, I would have deleted it if I could...I typed it because I was anxious for some reassurance but then realized it didn't really matter, what's done is done, but thanks for the feedback.

Click to expand...

Sadly you'll get little reassurance here (or any other firearms forum I've seen). What you'll get a lot more of, is people eager to show how much smarter than you they are, by nit-picking your every thought, word and deed.

If I ever need to defend myself, the last thing I'll do is recount the experience on an Internet forum.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

I'm glad it ended well; good on you for showing restraint.

Click to expand...

+1

Way too much arm chair quarterbacking here. At least one poster has been reasonable and posted pertinent code.

As for OODA loop, Tueller drill, and other such technobabble, the OP actually had to live through the real thing and he stopped the threat without escalating it to actual violence. Sounds good to me, as told by the OP. Doubting him and telling him he should have killed a man is extreme to say the least. Here's to hoping the rest of us don't have to face that situation anytime soon.

Tomahawk is probably on one of the most well spoken folks on this board.

The OP stopped a potentially dangerous situation.

nobody was hurt or killed.

nobody was charged with anything.

What better outcome could there be?

Why shoot if you dont have to, and face manslaughter charges or litigation?

Why call the cops and get the guy charged with a felony because he had a few too many and decided to act like a jackass? Is that really worth ruining the guys life over?

Sounds like saltwater handled the situation appropriately to me.

no carry permit ? · Nov 14, 2008

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rob99vmi04 wrote:

I know what you guys are thinking and your reading way to much into this.

Even if your 100% justfied and you shoot Usama bin Laden self defense, coming at you ith an RPG screaming death to all americans, you are still being charged in VA for Murder in 2nd degree.

If guns are pulled "Most LIKELY" if the police are involved somebodies getting charged with something or detained or are going to have pay somekind of fee.

1) You don't have a clue what they/ we are thinking.

2) No, you are wrong about the 2nd degree murder charge. There have been numerous cases of citizens using a firearm in similar situations, without ever being charged.

3) "If a gun is pull there will be charges", wrong again. I have been in that situation, no charges.

Frankly I hope you are not carrying a weapon anywhere. You don't know enough about what you are talking about to post heremuch less be so opinionated. What an idiot, I hope you are a teenager.

no carry permit ? · Nov 14, 2008

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Homicide in VA is a automatic 2nd Degree murder charge.

Incorrect ! Many people have killed someone in self defense in Virginia without ever being charged. Homicide (even unintentual ) is a crime, using a firearm to defend yourself against an armed attacker isn't homicide in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Making bizarre claims like this just makes you look really ignorant.

marshaul · Nov 14, 2008

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Tomahawk wrote:

As for OODA loop, Tueller drill, and other such technobabble, the OP actually had to live through the real thing and he stopped the threat without escalating it to actual violence. Sounds good to me, as told by the OP. Doubting him and telling him he should have killed a man is extreme to say the least. Here's to hoping the rest of us don't have to face that situation anytime soon.

+1 That's what I was trying to get at on page 2.

Alwayspacking · Nov 14, 2008

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I would just advise you to take everyword against your life as serious. When I was in high school, people could not tell I was mad when I was really upset, and then we were in hand to hand combat. afterwards some would say I thought he was justplaying.

But other than thinking he was playing, I would say you did well.

TexasNative · Nov 15, 2008

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I find it amusing/annoying that folks who weren't present for the incident and only have a brief description of what happened from a single person can go on and on about what's right, what's wrong, what you can (or will definitely) be charged with, what will get you killed in some generalized future occurrence, and so on, and so forth.

Every situation is unique, and yes, it can really help to think through the different scenarios so you're not thinking about it for the first time in the "heat of battle."

But the pretentious preaching about what someone must do, or what definitively will happen, would be laughable if it weren't so damned annoying.

ETA: I failed to notice that there was a third page with a good number of posts on it before I piled on. I'm such a dweeb.

MeBaby · Nov 15, 2008

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Glad you made it through OK, SaltH2OHokie.

darthmord · Nov 17, 2008

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rob99vmi04 wrote:

ChinChin wrote:

Double tap; please to excuse!

Click to expand...

"while in the prosecution of some felonious act other than those specified in"

Yeah I missed this line. My bad! and I looked for it under disparity of force, self defense couldn't find anything. However, I'm almost positive that in VA if you take a life its treated as second degree murder. Again they have the option to drop it, but its still treated as such a charge. Charge not meaning Guility.

There's a blue book called the Virginia Gun Owner's Guide (got it at Bob's Gun Shop several months ago). In it, it says in very plain language that anytime a gun is fired at another person, a crime has been committed.

Whether that crime was on the part of the shooter (unlawful discharge of a firearm, murder, etc) or the receiver of said round (using deadly force, etc) is determined after the fact.

I read it as basically saying if a gun is fired, someone is getting charged with something, who depends on the circumstances.

It may be that sort of interpretation that is making you think this.

ProShooter · Nov 17, 2008

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darthmord wrote:

rob99vmi04 wrote:

ChinChin wrote:

Double tap; please to excuse!

Click to expand...

"while in the prosecution of some felonious act other than those specified in"

Yeah I missed this line. My bad! and I looked for it under disparity of force, self defense couldn't find anything. However, I'm almost positive that in VA if you take a life its treated as second degree murder. Again they have the option to drop it, but its still treated as such a charge. Charge not meaning Guility.

Click to expand...

There's a blue book called the Virginia Gun Owner's Guide (got it at Bob's Gun Shop several months ago). In it, it says in very plain language that anytime a gun is fired at another person, a crime has been committed.

Whether that crime was on the part of the shooter (unlawful discharge of a firearm, murder, etc) or the receiver of said round (using deadly force, etc) is determined after the fact.

I read it as basically saying if a gun is fired, someone is getting charged with something, who depends on the circumstances.

It may be that sort of interpretation that is making you think this.

A book can print whatever they want - the legal authority behind that writing is suspect in my mind.

ChinChin · Nov 17, 2008

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People in this thread are making false omnibus statements such as if you defensively use a firearm to repel an attacker bent on murdering you, you will automaticaly have a 2nd degree homicide charge filed against you.

That is an EXTREMLEY dangerous statement. Despite being blatently false, it could cause hesitation in the mind of somebody defending their life or the life of their loved one. That hesitation could be all that is needed for said badguy to take that guy away from the defender as they see the hesitation in their eyes. You have then made a life or death situation for the defender; and they'll lose.

Bottomline is if you are not doing anything illegal, nor did you do anything to escalate the situation leading up to having to shoot somebody and have honest fear of death or grevious bodily injury; you need to have the ability to stop and control that situation and protect your continued exsistance; or that of your loved one.

Making statements of "automatic 2nd degree homocide" can get somebody seriously hurt or worse.

67GT390FB · Nov 17, 2008

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ChinChin wrote:

TheEggman wrote:

Homicide in VA is a automatic 2nd Degree murder charge.

Click to expand...

Please to be providing a Cite to back up this claim stated as fact.

The below news stories would seem to refute your claims. Nowhere in any of the cites below does it state 2nd degree murder was ever considered; and in many it says no charges were filed.

1) Dave Fielding (Richmond Virginia): Shot a criminal in self defense who attempted to rob his store with a BB gun. Robber died; Mr. Fielding never charged.

Source: http://pharrout.com/~hillsand/2007/10/03/more-on-the-shooting/

2) Adam Stone (Goochland Virginia): Shot and killed an intruder to his Goochland home. He has yet to be charged.

Source: http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-07-26-0080.html

3) Unnamed victim shot a man attempting to rob them at the Liberty Estates apartment complex on Cunningham Avenue; Hampton VA.

Source: http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/VA.html

4) Shop Owner of Dominick's Pizza and Pasta shoot and kills robber.The article says there are no charges.

Source: http://www.wvec.com/news/topstories/stories/wvec_local_062808_pizza_shop_employee_kills_thief.51300a5.html

5) Springfield Virginia: Unnamed Security guard (bouncer) kills a spanish guy who jumped him outside of the bar. No charges filed.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/21/AR2008022102867.html

actually it has not been formally announced that i have seen, but #2 on your list was ruled justifiable homicede by the grand jury. I learned this talking with the Goochland County Sheriff a few weeks ago.

First time I've ever pulled my gun from it's holster in a defensive situation:

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