Donuts, Cops, and a Revolver

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OK...So,

2:00am, Monday Nov. 10, I was driving to Bowling Green from Louisville. I had class the next morning and wanted to get something to eat before getting home. I stopped at GADS, the Great American Donut Shop, which is open 24hrs. When I left I saw a police cruiser pass by me, and in my rear view mirror I saw him do a U-turn in the road and quickly catch up with me. Then I saw another cruiser do a U-turn in a parking in order to also get behind me. Then another cruiser passed me going the other way. Then ANOTHER cruiser does a U-turn in a parking lot to pull out. Eventually they finally blue light me and I pull off the road into a gas station turn opposite my original travel and park.

I turned off my car and put my keys on my hood (they told us to in the CDWL class). When I could see that the officer was outside his cruiser and within earshot I said something like, "Sir, I just want you to know I have a concealed carry license and have a revolver in my pocket." They came up to my window and had me stick my hands out the driver's side window. Then they had me get out and put my hands on top of the car.

They disarmed me, patted me down, and asked if I had any other weapons. They asked what I was doing and where I was coming from. I told them. They eventually told me there had been a burglar alarm at an audio store next door to the donut shop. I pulled out when the officer coming to check the scene was coming the other way.

I apparently made them nervous by pulling into the gas station and putting my keys on top of the car. Also the license plate is in my grandmothers name and her drivers license is expired. They released me and gave back my revolver when my license checked out.

Now I guess I'm in the club of the "disarmed." I didn't like it.

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Sounds like RAS to me.

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jmlefler wrote:

Sounds like RAS to me.

Click to expand...

Yep, cops can use all sorts of things to constitute reasonable suspicion. Don't like it, don't drive around in a car licensed to someone with a suspended license. Leaving the burglary scene could have been another matter entirely. They could have just made it up, but it could also be plausible.

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ghostrider wrote:

jmlefler wrote:

Sounds like RAS to me.

Click to expand...

Yep, cops can use all sorts of things to constitute reasonable suspicion. Don't like it, don't drive around in a car licensed to someone with a suspended license. Leaving the burglary scene could have been another matter entirely. They could have just made it up, but it could also be plausible.

Click to expand...

This is true and it is also considered reasonable that nothing good happens after midnight.

Situation awareness is always the mode if you are carrying.

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Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

jmlefler wrote:

Sounds like RAS to me.

Click to expand...

Yep, cops can use all sorts of things to constitute reasonable suspicion. Don't like it, don't drive around in a car licensed to someone with a suspended license. Leaving the burglary scene could have been another matter entirely. They could have just made it up, but it could also be plausible.

Click to expand...

This is true and it is also considered reasonable that nothing good happens after midnight.

Situation awareness is always the mode if you are carrying.

Click to expand...

Is there legal precedent for "after midnight" attributing to reasonable suspicion?

I walk around my neighborhood quite often after that hour. Also, many people are getting out of work after that hour. I'd certainly be interested in reading the cite to that.

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ghostrider wrote:

Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

jmlefler wrote:

Sounds like RAS to me.

Click to expand...

Yep, cops can use all sorts of things to constitute reasonable suspicion. Don't like it, don't drive around in a car licensed to someone with a suspended license. Leaving the burglary scene could have been another matter entirely. They could have just made it up, but it could also be plausible.

Click to expand...

This is true and it is also considered reasonable that nothing good happens after midnight.

Situation awareness is always the mode if you are carrying.

Click to expand...

Is there legal precedent for "after midnight" attributing to reasonable suspicion?

I walk around my neighborhood quite often after that hour. Also, many people are getting out of work after that hour. I'd certainly be interested in reading the cite to that.

Click to expand...

I don't know that there is. when I was younger and out,up to no good, most of that happened after midnight.

The only otherpeople I saw were the cops, other people up to no good, and the odd working stiff going home after a late shift.

I guess I would class my comment under personal observation.

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Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

jmlefler wrote:

Sounds like RAS to me.

Click to expand...

Yep, cops can use all sorts of things to constitute reasonable suspicion. Don't like it, don't drive around in a car licensed to someone with a suspended license. Leaving the burglary scene could have been another matter entirely. They could have just made it up, but it could also be plausible.

Click to expand...

This is true and it is also considered reasonable that nothing good happens after midnight.

Situation awareness is always the mode if you are carrying.

Click to expand...

Is there legal precedent for "after midnight" attributing to reasonable suspicion?

I walk around my neighborhood quite often after that hour. Also, many people are getting out of work after that hour. I'd certainly be interested in reading the cite to that.

Click to expand...

I don't know that there is. when I was younger and out,up to no good, most of that happened after midnight.

The only otherpeople I saw were the cops, other people up to no good, and the odd working stiff going home after a late shift.

I guess I would class my comment under personal observation.

Click to expand...

Good Idea.

Reasonable Suspicion is a legal term. For an officer to be detained, that officer must be able to articulate reasonable suspicion that a crime is afoot. That means that the specific action/activity/etc... (in this case, being out after midnight) is something that a reasonable person would believe indicates a specific criminal act (up to no good is not a specific criminal act). Since a lot of people are out for lawful purposes after midnight, then I doubt it could be RS. Contrary to what many people (including some officers) think and say, police cannot legally stop someone "just to check them out". That violates the 4th Amendment right against "unreasonable search and seizures". They absolutely must have articuable reasonable suspicion.

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ghostrider wrote:

Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:

ghostrider wrote:

jmlefler wrote:

Sounds like RAS to me.

Click to expand...

Yep, cops can use all sorts of things to constitute reasonable suspicion. Don't like it, don't drive around in a car licensed to someone with a suspended license. Leaving the burglary scene could have been another matter entirely. They could have just made it up, but it could also be plausible.

Click to expand...

This is true and it is also considered reasonable that nothing good happens after midnight.

Situation awareness is always the mode if you are carrying.

Click to expand...

Is there legal precedent for "after midnight" attributing to reasonable suspicion?

I walk around my neighborhood quite often after that hour. Also, many people are getting out of work after that hour. I'd certainly be interested in reading the cite to that.

Click to expand...

I don't know that there is. when I was younger and out,up to no good, most of that happened after midnight.

The only otherpeople I saw were the cops, other people up to no good, and the odd working stiff going home after a late shift.

I guess I would class my comment under personal observation.

Click to expand...

Good Idea.

Reasonable Suspicion is a legal term. For an officer to be detained, that officer must be able to articulate reasonable suspicion that a crime is afoot. That means that the specific action/activity/etc... (in this case, being out after midnight) is something that a reasonable person would believe indicates a specific criminal act (up to no good is not a specific criminal act). Since a lot of people are out for lawful purposes after midnight, then I doubt it could be RS. Contrary to what many people (including some officers) think and say, police cannot legally stop someone "just to check them out". That violates the 4th Amendment right against "unreasonable search and seizures". They absolutely must have articuable reasonable suspicion.

Click to expand...

You are right.



Still at 2:am and its boring to sit and do nothing, when a cop sees anyone, off he goes. A lot of what happens is up to how you act.

One time I have flown to Brownsville and when I left the Airport I got lost. It was late and very dark and I had no clue as to where I was.

I was going down a road and I just knew I was in a bad place so I did a quick U turn and headed back for friendlier climes.

As soon as I turned around, a squad car put on his lights and pulled me over.

They thought I saw them and was taking off.

As soon as they got to the car I told them how much I was glad they had come along and asked for directions to my motel.

They immediately were taken off guard and changed from tough cop mode to helpful servant mode.

They showed me where I was and where to go on my map and off I went.

I was armed and it could have ended up just like the OP situation, but my friendly happy greeting changed everything.

I had done nothing wrong, u-turns were not illegal, but they were bored and I presented a puzzle they wanted to solve.

It turned out good for both of us.

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boohickey11 wrote:

I apparently made them nervous by pulling into the gas station and putting my keys on top of the car.

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That is sarcasm, right?

This post reminds me of something I always find a bit, well, humorous? Could an LEO on here tell me why I often see 5 - 6 police crusers join the scene of 1 suspect vehicle sitting in handcuffs on the ground? I realize people driving by don't know what's going on, but I've never understood why so many cars with flashing lights are necessary. I mean, it's blinding me on the side of the road at times.

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I've been pulled over several times since I've had my ccdw and I have never been disarmed, I also never set my keys on the hood, the only thing I did differently then I would've if I hadn't had my ccdw, was inform them I was a ccdw holder and that I was currently armed, which we aren't required to do in Ky.

One time I didn't even realize I was being pulled over, pulled into a gas station, hopped out and didn't see the officer until I got to my gas cap (not very good situational awareness I know but it was after a 17 hr drive, cut me some slack). When I informed him I was carrying on my right hip the only thing he did was lift my shirt and say nice gun.

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As a police officer, I can tell you the keys on the dashboard is a stupid idea. I can't believe your instructor told you that.

All those little things people do that they think will make us less concerned abut their behavior only make us more so...

The fact that backup was called for before the stop makes me believe the alarm story.

I tell everyone, when your stopped, just put the vehicle in park, put your hands on the wheel, let the officer approach and make his statements, then, with your hands still on the wheel, tell him you have a weapon in the car. Then just follow his directions from there...

I did this everytime I was stopped BEFORE I was an LEO, and I was never once disarmmed, even when I was out-of-state...

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sounds like RAS to me, if the alarm were true. alarm goes off, LEO is called, they arrive to see a car pulling out of the parking lot at a late hour, seems like enough RAS to make an investigatory stop.

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Since that night I've returned to the donut shop to get more yummy donuts and after seeing exactly how far away the car audio shop is from the street I pulled out I can say that there is no way they should have had reasonable suspicion. You can see the scenario in this map. The green is the LEO car, the black is the alarm location, the red is the donut shop and the blue is the street I pulled out of.

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boohickey11 wrote:

Since that night I've returned to the donut shop to get more yummy donuts and after seeing exactly how far away the car audio shop is from the street I pulled out I can say that there is no way they should have had reasonable suspicion. You can see the scenario in this map. The green is the LEO car, the black is the alarm location, the red is the donut shop and the blue is the street I pulled out of.

Click to expand...

As a cop, I can tell you that yes, that is enough for RAS. Time of the morning+you only person around+you leaving the area= you get stopped, plain and simple.

Anyone on here can tell you one thing I DONT do is blanketly defend cops I will call a cop a dumbass if he/she had done something that deserves it...but this one is pretty cut and dry. At least, as cut and dry as any police work can be...

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I'm a big libertarian so I don't usually like most of what our society has dictated what LEOs job is supposed to be. From what I've heard around Bowling Green, the majority of police calls are Wal-mart shoplifting and shop alarms. I don't like socialized store security.

It may not be a popular opinion but it's mine.