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Thread: When OC...

  1. #1
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    I was in Chuck E Cheese letting my daughter play, of course OC as I do, and I was thinking to myself what action I would take, if any, if someone where to rob the place armed with a gun.

    My thoughts were that my primary duty is the safety of my family and the other patrons. But do I have a responsibility to protect the assets of Chuck E Cheese?

    He is robbing a business with a gun which, I am not positive but pretty sure is a felony. . . In that situation I feel I would be in fear for the lives of my family and the patrons...can I simply draw on the robber and tell him to "take the money and leave and no one will get hurt"?

    Do I have any responsibility to protect their money?

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    Well, since the police don't have any responsibility to protect anyone (even though they've sworn an oath that says they do), then I'm pretty sure you don't either.. but that being said, if you're there and armed while the place is being robbed at gunpoint I'd think at the very least you have a responsibility to defend yourself and your family.. otherwise you're just wearing the gun for show and making yourself a potential target if things get ugly.

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    'Criminal' is the conclusion of a trier of fact.

    Your gun is for self-defense. Defense of an innocent is something else. Defense of property is yet another thing altogether.

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    Theseus wrote:
    Do I have any responsibility to protect their money?
    No.

    But that being said, youmay sensethat if the criminal is about to inflict great bodily injury or kill someone you may act in defense of yourself or another. It does not do us any good to inject ourselves into any circumstances that do not require immediate self-defense.
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  5. #5
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    Well, since the police don't have any responsibility to protect anyone (even though they've sworn an oath that says they do), then I'm pretty sure you don't either.. but that being said, if you're there and armed while the place is being robbed at gunpoint I'd think at the very least you have a responsibility to defend yourself and your family.. otherwise you're just wearing the gun for show and making yourself a potential target if things get ugly.
    I understand that. I would think of my family first, the safety of the patrons second, and the safety of the scumbag next.

    And that is what I am saying. . . You never know if he has any intention to shoot anyone, my entering an objectionable gun (objectionable to the BG)...there is a chance that I just made the situation worst. . . Arguably I just made it better.

    You answers so far are basically: just load and wait it out...if the guy leaves without putting anyone in any more perceivable danger than robbing them with a gun I do nothing further than try to be a good witness for the police. . . but if he escalates to violence then I take action.

    But there is where the question comes...if I do feel it escalating to that...should I even bother trying to deescalate the situation by allowing him a chance to leave without hurting anyone. . believing that the threat of being killed himself might make him think twice and just leave without anyone having to be hurt.

    But what would the police think if I did that? I had drawn on someone that showed themselves to be a violent and dangerous criminal capable of killing someone and I let him go...

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    Theseus wrote:
    But there is where the question comes...if I do feel it escalating to that...should I even bother trying to deescalate the situation by allowing him a chance to leave without hurting anyone. . believing that the threat of being killed himself might make him think twice and just leave without anyone having to be hurt.

    But what would the police think if I did that? I had drawn on someone that showed themselves to be a violent and dangerous criminal capable of killing someone and I let him go...
    I just came back from Iraq. The policies of today are 180* from years ago. We are only allow to AT A LAST RESORT, to shoot only to protect "a lost of life, limb or eyesight."

    Following that rule, I would get involved if I was to feel that the guy is about to take a life, limb or eyesight. I would be pretty sure the jury would not disagree with me to take him out.

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    Theseus wrote
    And that is what I am saying. . . You never know if he has any intention to shoot anyone, my entering an objectionable gun (objectionable to the BG)...there is a chance that I just made the situation worst. . . Arguably I just made it better.

    You answers so far are basically: just load and wait it out...if the guy leaves without putting anyone in any more perceivable danger than robbing them with a gun I do nothing further than try to be a good witness for the police. . . but if he escalates to violence then I take action.

    But there is where the question comes...if I do feel it escalating to that...should I even bother trying to deescalate the situation by allowing him a chance to leave without hurting anyone. . believing that the threat of being killed himself might make him think twice and just leave without anyone having to be hurt.

    But what would the police think if I did that? I had drawn on someone that showed themselves to be a violent and dangerous criminal capable of killing someone and I let him go...
    I wouldn't just load and wait it out. If the BG is pointing a gun at anyone, as far as I'm concerned he's putting someone in "imminent danger" of death or great bodily harm. Regardless of what the cops might think (and *especially* since they'd probably do the same thing as I would, or worse, in that situation) to me that justifies drawing my weapon.

    What I would probably do in that situation is draw my weapon, point it at the BG since I believe the situation justifies the threat or use of deadly force, and yell "drop it or I'll shoot" or something to that effect. If he runs, I'd let him go, he didn't actually hurt anyone so no point in chasing him down and if he tries to get me arrested for "brandishing" or something ridiculous like that, I'm sure a place like that has everything on camera so the cops or a jury can quickly figure out what really happened. If he doesn't run and refuses to drop the weapon (or worse, escalates the situation further) I'd have no problem squeezing off a couple rounds.

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    Draw, load, be aware of what or who is behind him...... then use that amount of force needed to stop his aggression.

    His having a gun out, is your only requirement that he intends bodily harm or death to any patron or family member. You have no obligation to get into his head and wonder "does he, or doesn't he?" He has already proven his intent. You do not need to announce yourself, or ask him to do anything (it ain't like a movie), just shoot the ****, keep him covered, and request or give medical aid if needed (and if so, get more practice at the range!). Do not move him, do not allow anyone else to move him (prosecution will use any movement to prove you tried to cover up a murder).

    You are under no legal obligation to take him out. But you SHOULD be under the moral obligation to protect those around you, and yourself.

    This is called being socially responsible

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    This is a subject discussed at length before.

    Opinions varied.

    As far as advance planning, I think you'll have to sort it out by taking each action and reaction in turn and run through the possibilities in your mind.

    For example, if you issue a challenge, it doesn't go down like the movies. I've come across a report that the bad guy, adrenalin pumped, can whirl and shoot you before you can react to his whirl and shoot him. Maybe not always. Maybe you're faster. Maybe he misses you and hits someone else.

    What if you shoot while his back is to you holding the cashier at gun point? Does your hitcause him to reflexively trigger a shot? Does that shot hit a cashier he might not have shot, just robbed?

    What if he wasn't going to shoot and your drawn gun, or challenge, or shot starts a gunfight? What if you miss and gunfight starts?

    Play out the possibilities in your mind.

    Where I ended up was being a good witness, protecting friends and family, and realizing I probably couldn't save the first person he shot, if he shot. Not knowing whether he planned to shoot, I could start an unnecessary gunfight and possibly get the cashier or other innocents hurt or killed.

    But, so much for planning. The best laid plans...etc. At a certain point, you have to work with the situation in front of you. For example, what does one do if there are two robbers and one of them covers the customers while the other robs the cashier?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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  10. #10
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    To directly answer your questions:

    I'm 99.9% certain you have no legal obligation to prevent a crime. Some might argue you have a moral obligation.

    Each person has to do what they are comfortable with. If you're a damn good shot and know you can end it without collateral damage, then go for it. If you're like me with a pistol (a bad shot), then you may just want to take cover and be reactive. After all, it's the owner's problem his employees aren't armed to defend themselves.

    If you choose to get involved, I would remain silent. Armed robbers are violent and probably won't be reasonable. You're giving away your element of surprise and creating an opportunity for a shootout. Also, with all the commotion others might mistake you as an accomplice. It won't end well if someone else happens to be armed you're mistaken as a BG.

    In all self-defense situations I recommend swift, decisive action. That's why these mental exercises are so important. Constantly run shooting scenarios through your head. Situational awareness is not only identifying possible BGs, but also knowing how you would move/shoot if the SHTF.
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    NO


    Everybody here pretty much has it covered. If the robber(s) is only demanding money from the register and is not trying to rob everybody in the store just quitely draw and load keeping the gun out of sight. If he just wants store money and leaves then fine. Now if he gets even more out of hand and starts pistol whipping the clerk, shooting in the air etc. Then Draw, Announce, and Shoot if he doesnt drop it.as long as he isnt "TOO" close to an innocent (like holdig on to the clerk dragging them around to open things and get money).

    Now if it is a takeover style robbery where they rob everybody in the store....expecially with multiple robbers..... I would draw AS soonasit wassafe to do so. I might even take one of the roobers and use them as a human sheild from the others. Kinda take 1 Hostage like: "drop the weapons or your homey's Pictureis gonna end up on a bunch of your T-shirt" (memorial shirt).

    The problem with the takeover style robbery is you can be giving a gun up to the suspects and they might want to kill/hurt u thinking your a cop after they find it. So i'd wait until one of them was close enough to grab but not paying attention getting loot from somebody close by.

    Every OC'er should hit the range a lot and take a few defense/tactical classes to make sure you can send out a headshot and putany shots o targetwhen needed. A time might call where u need to put the perps light out instantly. sometimes body shots still give them so many seconds of life to pull the trigger so you need to be able to hand out all kinds of shots for all kinds ofsituation (Disabling shots, lethal body shots, instant lethal head shots, etc).

    Also practice drawing, dry firing, loading and reloading, as much as possible. I can draw,unload an empty mag, and load a full mag DAMN quick. Almost as quick as some can just straight draw out the holster, i'm still working on it.

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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    If you're like me with a pistol (a bad shot), then you may just want to take cover and be reactive. After all, it's the owner's problem his employees aren't armed to defend themselves.
    We are going to have to change that CA_Lib lol. You should come out here to the steel shoots sometime on saturday nights. We bassically UOC in the back yard of the range and shoot comp style at different types ofsteel plate racks and poppers from 10-25 yds. Draw from the holster or start from the ready, it's great comp and general OC practice. It also happens to be the most fun you can find in the bay area besides indoor rapid fire at jackson arms in SO. City.

  13. #13
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    I'm working on it already. I am proficient enough that I can put all my lead on my target, just not good grouping. For some reason I am much better with long guns, despite having very little experience with them.

    In any case, I plan to go to a friend's private "range" once a month (weather permitting). Now that I don't have to worry about range fees and range ammo prices I can afford to shoot much more often.

    Maybe once I'm a little less embarrassed about my groupings I'll check out the steel shoots you guys do.
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    I am not a Policeman.

    If I see an obvious threat to me or another innocent, and I have the opportunity, I will stop that threat.

    Not being a Policeman, I have no obligation to stop or detain anyone. If I draw, I fire, and I only draw and fire if I truly recognize a threat to human life.

    Things are things, if he is running with a bunch of things or money....let him go.

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    Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:
    Not being a Policeman, I have no obligation to stop or detain anyone.
    It is my understanding that the SCOTUS ruled that the police have no such obligation either. I guess they just take that oath for pomp and circumstance to make themselves feel legit.
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:
    Not being a Policeman, I have no obligation to stop or detain anyone.
    It is my understanding that the SCOTUS ruled that the police have no such obligation either. I guess they just take that oath for pomp and circumstance to make themselves feel legit.
    I thought it was "Protect" that SCOTUS determined that they had no duty to do, but either way I am not a Policeman.

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    In response to the OP, if you do not have a gun do you have a responsibility? If you have a knife instead of a gun then what is your responsibility? The sonner we get over this idea that carrying a gun turns us into a LEO the better we will all be. Carrying a gun does not make you a sheriff nor does it make you a deputy or anything else other than an armed citizen. Even if you have a permit of some type you still don't get any more "rights" or responsibilities than anyone else. You have the responsibility to obey the law and not kill someone and the right to defend yourself but no more than if you were carrying a knife, whistle or your bare hands. A gun is a tool, it is not a badge. If you have responsibility to detain the robber without a gun then you have the responsibility with a gun. Otherwise mind your own business and keep your gun in the holster.

  18. #18
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    PT111 said:

    In response to the OP, if you do not have a gun do you have a responsibility? If you have a knife instead of a gun then what is your responsibility? The sonner we get over this idea that carrying a gun turns us into a LEO the better we will all be. Carrying a gun does not make you a sheriff nor does it make you a deputy or anything else other than an armed citizen. Even if you have a permit of some type you still don't get any more "rights" or responsibilities than anyone else. You have the responsibility to obey the law and not kill someone and the right to defend yourself but no more than if you were carrying a knife, whistle or your bare hands. A gun is a tool, it is not a badge. If you have responsibility to detain the robber without a gun then you have the responsibility with a gun. Otherwise mind your own business and keep your gun in the holster.

    Well I disagree, we do0 have a responsibility to protect our self and family, and others who might be in danger. We truly are NOT LEO's, however if it were not for a fellow citizen who came to my rescue with a gun, I might not be here today, and I was wounded pretty badly, he could have just said to himself "Oh Well" Its not my business and stayed in his house.

    We do have a responsibility to help our fellow man & woman, when there in danger, if some maniac is shoving a gun in your face and screaming at you, your a victum and I do think the court, with the witness's agains't the "BG dead or still alive" might just help save your case. I've had guns shoved in my face and ready to shoot , and believe me its not a good feeling. Guns or Knifes.

    Each situation is differant but if you have an advanage take it, so no one could be harmed. The course you take, will depend on the situation at hand. This sanario did happen in a town back east, a Nam Vet was having lunch in a resterant when a BG came in with a gun to hold up the owner of his money putting a gun to the guys head and demanding money, the BG demanded everyone to get down on the ground when people were getting down, the Nam Vet pulled his 45 cal and popped the BG and no charges were filled agains't the Nam Vet, and no one else got hurt, He didn't even have a CCW, but back then most sheriff's used good common sence and there was a write-up in the local paper how the Nam Vet saved the day. The BG was DEAD !

    Yes a lot does depend on the Sheriff and Da and the Courts were are stuck with. But when election time comes around people will remember who is fair and who is a knothead !

    Remembering that we are the government, at least it was that way in the beginning. When they start putting people in jail for defending themselfs, then there is no laws anymore !!!

    Robin47

  19. #19
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    Yes you have a responsibility but not because you carry a gun but because you are a human being. Carrying a gun give you no more authority than if you don't have one, however it may give you an advantage that you would not because you have a gun instead of a knife. You would not allow you family to be harmed if you didn't have a gun would you? Wouldn't you do everything in your power to protect them? Then why would you say that having a gun gives you more responsibility than not having one. You should do what ever is in your power to help you fellow human being with or without a gun and if you think that you shouldn't help someone because you don't have a gun then join the people in NY that walk over the man lying dying in the street laughing at him.You may be better able to defend someone if you have a gun but not having one doesn't give you an excuse to ignore them. If it does then we are in a very sad state of affairs as a human race and do away with the entire consititution including 2A.

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    Yeah PT111,

    Your right there, yes a gun is just a tool, and yes we all should stand up for our fellowman, Guns knifes bear handed ETC.

    However unless your a Chuck Norris, I would rather have a gun and especially at my age !

    Robin47

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    The point is that if the BG went crazy in Chuck-E-Cheese and started turning the machines over would you get involved? He is bare handed and so are you. How about if the robber had a baseball bat and you did also? The equalization of force is definitely to be considered but if the robber has a gun and you have a gun doesn't require you to get any more involved than if both of you have switchblades. Too many people feel that having a gun makes them something special yet want to be ignored by the public. A gun is a tool and I am not Chuck Norris either but I am also a private citizen, not a LEO.

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    The only thing I would worry about with your situation, is a DA facing
    re-election might try to get you as an accomplice. So he can appear tuff on crime.

    You pulled a gun, and helped the robber to escape. He would probably
    argue that the pimply faced cashier was about to make a citizens arrest and stop
    the thug. After all he had a brown belt in pant *******.
    Also getting involved before violence escalates with the type of crowd in CC's
    is just asking for trouble. Not many places for a stray that won't get someone.
    Even overhead is full of kids. And what is outside waiting on the BG?
    Could be a gang initiation, and a whole car full will be comming in if he doesn't go out
    with the money.

    But definately, crouch and if needed get that thumb brake out of the way.



  23. #23
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    PT111 wrote:
    Yes you have a responsibility but not because you carry a gun but because you are a human being. Carrying a gun give you no more authority than if you don't have one, however it may give you an advantage that you would not because you have a gun instead of a knife. You would not allow you family to be harmed if you didn't have a gun would you? Wouldn't you do everything in your power to protect them? Then why would you say that having a gun gives you more responsibility than not having one. You should do what ever is in your power to help you fellow human being with or without a gun and if you think that you shouldn't help someone because you don't have a gun then join the people in NY that walk over the man lying dying in the street laughing at him.You may be better able to defend someone if you have a gun but not having one doesn't give you an excuse to ignore them. If it does then we are in a very sad state of affairs as a human race and do away with the entire consititution including 2A.
    You are so right.

    I naturally want to help those I can. If I can I will help others.

    I have no responsibility to catch a crook or detain him.

    I will not aid a crook and if all things happen in such a way that allow me to stop a crook, with out endangering others, I will do that too.

    One more time. I am not a Policeman and I do not intent do pretend I am one.



  24. #24
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    You all are taking this further off the track.

    I did not ask if I have the authority to do so...I am not a cop and have no intention of being a member of law enforcement.

    I am only wondering if I have any duty to protect the money of the business. I already consider it my duty to protect my family, my self and the patrons.

    I believe that although you all mean well I have made the determination myself.

  25. #25
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    Theseus wrote:
    ....I am only wondering if I have any duty to protect the money of the business.....
    I would say, no duty, But if you can accomplish the task with little or no danger to any innocent, then it would be your choice.

    Remember, things are things and they can be replaced, this is not true for people.

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