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Thread: TGI Friday's / Roanoke, VA

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    Went to TGI Friday's here in Roanoke, VA this past Friday night with my wife. I was open carrying as required by Virginia state law. We finally got a sitter and decided to go for dinner and a movie.

    After waiting thirty minutes for a table, I decided to go to the restroom and wash my hands. Upon exiting the restroom, the manager was there waiting for me.

    He stopped me and told me that I would have to put my firearm in my car. I declined and told him that I would rather just eat elsewhere. So, my wife and I left and ate somewhere different.

    It was really aggravating that he allowed us to stand there waiting for thirty minutes before he decided to say something.

    Oh well.

    This begs a question, though. If there are signs in a business' parking lot that say to remove valuables from the vehicle because they are not responsible for loss or theft, does this include when they specifically ask you to put something valuable in there?

    For example, this particular situation. If the manager specifically asks you to place a firearm in your vehicle on his property, does he then take responsibility for it if it is lost or stolen?

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    thaJack wrote:
    Went to TGI Friday's here in Roanoke, VA this past Friday night with my wife. I was open carrying as required by Virginia state law. We finally got a sitter and decided to go for dinner and a movie.

    After waiting thirty minutes for a table, I decided to go to the restroom and wash my hands. Upon exiting the restroom, the manager was there waiting for me.

    He stopped me and told me that I would have to put my firearm in my car. I declined and told him that I would rather just eat elsewhere. So, my wife and I left and ate somewhere different.

    It was really aggravating that he allowed us to stand there waiting for thirty minutes before he decided to say something.

    Oh well.

    This begs a question, though. If there are signs in a business' parking lot that say to remove valuables from the vehicle because they are not responsible for loss or theft, does this include when they specifically ask you to put something valuable in there?

    For example, this particular situation. If the manager specifically asks you to place a firearm in your vehicle on his property, does he then take responsibility for it if it is lost or stolen?
    This is an excellent proposition. It would be the same thing as if he told your wife that he didn't want that large diamond on her finger and that she would have to put in your car. You've raised a very interesting question of culpability.

    Let's extend this a little further. Say he does what you have reported and you and your wife elect reluctantly to follow demand because you are hungry. Half way through your meal, someone enters the restaurant and starts randomly shooting people and you are hit and seriously wounded.

    Because you had been armed and were asked to remove your arm and take it to your car, is the restaurant now liable (more than the usual run of suits we see in cases like this)? Or would you fall into the category of having taken the decision to re-enter the restaurant unarmed, you did so at your own risk?

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Contract law,bailment, standard of care?

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Contract law,bailment, standard of care?
    Well a contract would not apply because the three required elements do not exist. As bailment would only exist if the parking lot was private and overseen by an employee or agent and then only for items stolen from the car. An example there would be taking your car into a shop and leaving your keys. The shop assumes temporary responsibility of the vehicle and all it implies. A suit to a cleaners is the same thing. (anyone - correct here if I am in error, but this is how it was explained in my law classes). I don't know anything about "standard of care" so I'm lost there.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    This is an excellent proposition. It would be the same thing as if he told your wife that he didn't want that large diamond on her finger and that she would have to put in your car. You've raised a very interesting question of culpability.

    Let's extend this a little further. Say he does what you have reported and you and your wife elect reluctantly to follow demand because you are hungry. Half way through your meal, someone enters the restaurant and starts randomly shooting people and you are hit and seriously wounded.

    Because you had been armed and were asked to remove your arm and take it to your car, is the restaurant now liable (more than the usual run of suits we see in cases like this)? Or would you fall into the category of having taken the decision to re-enter the restaurant unarmed, you did so at your own risk?
    I seem to recall some time ago reading about a state law somewhere that said that very thing... if a business did decide to post, or ask you to leave your weapon in your car, then they would be responsible for your safety. I just can't remember where that was... of even if I remember it correctly.

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    thaJack wrote:
    I seem to recall some time ago reading about a state law somewhere that said that very thing... if a business did decide to post, or ask you to leave your weapon in your car, then they would be responsible for your safety. I just can't remember where that was... of even if I remember it correctly.
    no, no, no, certainly no statute exists, and as far as I know, no case law either. But, in Virginia, businesses do have a common law duty to keep their customers safe - there is a case pending I still think against a Virginia hotel for failing to do enough to deter crime.

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Contract law,bailment, standard of care?
    Well a contract would not apply because the three required elements do not exist. As bailment would only exist if the parking lot was private and overseen by an employee or agent and then only for items stolen from the car. An example there would be taking your car into a shop and leaving your keys. The shop assumes temporary responsibility of the vehicle and all it implies. A suit to a cleaners is the same thing. (anyone - correct here if I am in error, but this is how it was explained in my law classes). I don't know anything about "standard of care" so I'm lost there.
    I ANAL

    OFFER: "You can shop here but you must leave your gun outside."

    (Failure of offer: No guns!)

    CONSIDERATION: "OK, but it must be secure."

    (Failure of consideration: "Hey, I'm not responsible for your gun. You can't come in!")

    ACCORD: "I wouldn't want to do anything illegal!" "Good. I don't want my customers hurt."

    (Failure of accord: "I just don't think you should be armed.")

    BAILMENT: "...leave your gun outside." "OK, but it must be secure." Transfer of control/possession. Argument: Is the gun out of control while locked/hidden in the customer's car?

    Standards of care are IIRC Casual, Ordinary and Strict set by the voluntary/involuntary - gratuitous/considered - term/open-abandoned matrix.

    Our shopper's offer is involuntary (either/or), considered(quid pro quo) and term(while shopping) and should be due at least a higher standard of care, else the accord fails (enabling theft).


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    I'm not sure at all how the law would see it, but I think the OP did the right thing from a tactical viewpoint. Once the manager told him to put it in the car, then the manager and anyone who heard the conversation or saw the OP put the gun in the car would know it was there for the taking.

    I think I'd have also asked the manager to post a sign so that "the many other gun owners around here would know to skip your restaurant."

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    Mike wrote:
    thaJack wrote:
    I seem to recall some time ago reading about a state law somewhere that said that very thing... if a business did decide to post, or ask you to leave your weapon in your car, then they would be responsible for your safety. I just can't remember where that was... of even if I remember it correctly.
    no, no, no, certainly no statute exists, and as far as I know, no case law either. But, in Virginia, businesses do have a common law duty to keep their customers safe - there is a case pending I still think against a Virginia hotel for failing to do enough to deter crime.
    Sorry for the confusion.. it was a law NOT in Virginia... I don't remember which state was considering such a law.

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    I saw a conversation on here not too long ago about whether or not people carry with this CCW badges.

    I personally do not. However, as an experiment I've thought now about getting one, clipping it to my belt, and then carrying into TGI Friday's again to see if I get a different reaction.

    Seeing a badge (even without seeing what is on it) they might not say anything at all.

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    thaJack wrote:
    I saw a conversation on here not too long ago about whether or not people carry with this CCW badges.

    I personally do not. However, as an experiment I've thought now about getting one, clipping it to my belt, and then carrying into TGI Friday's again to see if I get a different reaction.

    Seeing a badge (even without seeing what is on it) they might not say anything at all.
    Badge bad idea. Could be construed as impersonating a LEO.

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    thaJack wrote:
    I saw a conversation on here not too long ago about whether or not people carry with this CCW badges.

    I personally do not. However, as an experiment I've thought now about getting one, clipping it to my belt, and then carrying into TGI Friday's again to see if I get a different reaction.

    Seeing a badge (even without seeing what is on it) they might not say anything at all.
    Badge bad idea. Could be construed as impersonating a LEO.
    Could the same argument be made of mall security?

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    Badge is BAD idea. You did right by just leaving....I would never secure my weapon elsewhere just to eat. Let people know about what you encountered.

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    thaJack wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    thaJack wrote:
    I saw a conversation on here not too long ago about whether or not people carry with this CCW badges.

    I personally do not. However, as an experiment I've thought now about getting one, clipping it to my belt, and then carrying into TGI Friday's again to see if I get a different reaction.

    Seeing a badge (even without seeing what is on it) they might not say anything at all.
    Badge bad idea. Could be construed as impersonating a LEO.
    Could the same argument be made of mall security?
    Not if they're in uniform. Even if they are plainclothes, they aren't impersonating. They ARE security.

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    Let's set aside any personal opinions about wether or not its a good or bad idea to carry or wear a CCW Badge.

    Are there any laws in any states that anyone is aware of that specifically says, the simple act of wearing a badge, wether it be a shield or a star, is impersonating a law enforcement officer?

    Or does this fall under something like OC'ing, were the mere act of wearing a firearm is not illegal as long as your not doing anything else to give the police reason to arrest you?

    Just wondering.

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    Interesting. I've carried in TGI Fridays here in Michigan a couple of times. Nothing was ever said to me.

    Good choice going elsewhere.

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    Hey Jack the best move you could have made was to just leave. It may be worth your efforts to follow up with TGI Friday's corporate office to inform them of the issue you had, find out if they still have a firearms policy that would prevent the open carriage of firearms and fill them in that your story will be related to gun owners throughout the state and nationally who may currently be customers that they could lose.

    The VCDL (Virginia Citizens Defense League http://www.vcdl.org ) indicates already that TGI Fridays is not friendly toward gun carriers, however perhaps if they hear again that their policy will cost your business and your recommendation their policy may change.

    *Perhaps someone could also link this in the Virginia forum. I just ran across the story by accident and I look all over the site regularly.

    ** By the way, were you the one that had issues with the Home Depot in Roanoke that sits across the parking lot from Sportsman's Warehouse?

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    Regular Member ainfantry7's Avatar
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    I've had problems in the Valley View area too. One time I wasn't even carrying, I just removed my handgun before going into the store. However I did not remove my holster from my belt. I was followed all throughout the store by three or four security guards. Finally I just left...

    Anyone up for Open Carrying in Roanoke? Maybe a lunch or something? Just send me a personal message and I'll get back to you as soon as possible.

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    ** By the way, were you the one that had issues with the Home Depot in Roanoke that sits across the parking lot from Sportsman's Warehouse?
    See the attached PDF on HomeDepot - allows lawful carry



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    No that wasn't me...I've been gone for about a year now....

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    Lthrnck wrote:
    Are there any laws in any states that anyone is aware of that specifically says, the simple act of wearing a badge, wether it be a shield or a star, is impersonating a law enforcement officer?
    As far as impersonating, I'm not sure...

    I can tell you that Utah prohibits wearing a badge witha CHP permit.


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    Mike wrote:
    thaJack wrote:
    I seem to recall some time ago reading about a state law somewhere that said that very thing... if a business did decide to post, or ask you to leave your weapon in your car, then they would be responsible for your safety. I just can't remember where that was... of even if I remember it correctly.
    no, no, no, certainly no statute exists, and as far as I know, no case law either. But, in Virginia, businesses do have a common law duty to keep their customers safe - there is a case pending I still think against a Virginia hotel for failing to do enough to deter crime
    No, Mike, businesses do NOT (in general) have a common law duty to keep their customers safe. See Wright v. Webb, 234 Va. 527, 362 S.E.2d 919 (Va.,1987), Godfrey v. Boddie-Noell Enterprises, Inc., 843 F.Supp. 114 (E.D.Va.,1994).

    However, the case you are referring to is Taboada v. Daly Seven, Inc., 271 Va. 313, 626 S.E.2d 428 (Va.,2006). That's different.

    The general rule in Virginia is that there is no common law duty for an owner or occupier of land either to warn or to protect an invitee on his property from the criminal act of a third party. Yuzefovsky, 261 Va. at 106, 540 S.E.2d at 139. "[T]here are narrow exceptions to this rule," but the application of those exceptions "is always fact specific and, thus, not amenable to a bright-line rule for resolution." Id. However, before an exception to the general rule can apply so as to impose a potential duty upon the owner of land, the facts "must establish that there is a special relationship, either between the [owner of land] and the [invitee] or between the third party criminal actor and the [owner of land]." Id. at 107, 540 S.E.2d at 139. The relationship between innkeeper and guest has long been recognized by the common law as constituting just such a special relationship.


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    jmelvin wrote:
    ** By the way, were you the one that had issues with the Home Depot in Roanoke that sits across the parking lot from Sportsman's Warehouse?
    That was me. Corporate has apparently set them straight; I've open carried there several times since without incident.

    ainfantry7 wrote:
    Anyone up for Open Carrying in Roanoke? Maybe a lunch or something? Just send me a personal message and I'll get back to you as soon as possible.
    PM sent.

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    TD pm sent.

    Just saw someoneat Sportsmans Warehouse in Roanoke today!

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    thaJack wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    thaJack wrote:
    I saw a conversation on here not too long ago about whether or not people carry with this CCW badges.

    I personally do not. However, as an experiment I've thought now about getting one, clipping it to my belt, and then carrying into TGI Friday's again to see if I get a different reaction.

    Seeing a badge (even without seeing what is on it) they might not say anything at all.
    Badge bad idea. Could be construed as impersonating a LEO.
    Could the same argument be made of mall security?
    Not if they're in uniform. Even if they are plainclothes, they aren't impersonating. They ARE security.
    Virginia has a law regarding uniformed security guards. Their uniform cannot have the word "Police" or "Sheriff" anywhere on it.

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