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Thread: ccw permit class report

  1. #1
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    Well, I finally enrolled in the required certification course for my permit/license. We finished "module 1" last night and I have 7 hours left, including range time. Someone asked about the law and open carry, to which the instructor (a police training officer) responded that whereas it didn't constitute a weapons offense, it fell under "inducing panic." His sidekick co-instructor added "if I can see your gun, you're gonna see mine." Nevermind that the attorney general's booklet that they hand you as part of the class explicitly states, in pertinent part [emphasis in original]:

    Open Carry

    Ohio’s concealed carry laws do not regulate “open” carry of firearms.
    If you openly carry, use caution. The open carry of firearms is a legal activity in Ohio.

    The guy also said that you could be additionally charged for violating local ordinances concering carrying firearms, despite the fact that we have state preemption. I didn't get into a ******* contest with the guy - there are about 50 people in the class and I didn't want to waste even more time getting nowhere with them. I have spoken with these guys before by phone and e-mail concerning this, and yet they persist.

    Anyway, I thought I'd share.

    -ljp

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    Not coincidentally I was just this morning picking up a couple more copies of the AG's handbook that you quoted. At least one stays in the vehicle (above the driver's side visor) at all times, for encounters with the "uninformed in uniform" crowd. I also give out extras to those in need.

    At least you were in no ways surprised by the tripe those instructors were putting out.

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    Anyone with even an informal background in firearms could easily assimilate the pertinent laws and do the range qualification in about an hour, realistically (they drag it out to fill therequirement of 12 hours). There were some UTTERLY CLUELESS people there who might benefit generally from the class, despite the bad legal opinions/advice about OC. One woman asked - I kid you not - whether it was possble to abort a shooting once you pull the trigger. The instructor correctly replied that no, guns don't have rewind buttons, and that perhaps she ought to reconsider her decision to get a permit if she can't handle the psychological aspect of shooting someone. Simply incredible.

    To his credit, the instructor correctly stated that there are such things as stupid questions. You'd think they'd read their own manuals at least.

    -ljp

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    Legba, only laziness to date has stopped me from printing out a copy of Ohio's revised code concerning "inducing panic" and putting it above that same visor. (Gonna get crowdedup there though, along with the AG's guidebookthere is already a pocket-sized US Constitution.)

    Looks like I got something to do next time I'm sitting in front of a computer with a decent printer. Just hearing or reading "inducing panic" here in the Buckeye, 90% of the time it seems to be in the context of using that charge in a harassing, illegal manner! Best I start toting around its exact verbiage, as it is of much narrower scope than some LEOs would have us believe.

    Thankfully I'm in Kentucky at the moment or I swear this subject would be raising my blood pressure while I'm typing about it!


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    Yeah, unless you're intoxicated, committing some other crime at the same time, or making threats/brandishing, then merely having a non-concealed gun on your person does not constitute a crime (given that you're not a "prohibited person"), as I read the ORC.

    -ljp

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    Legba who provides the certification for these instructors to teach this course? Their blatant spouting of incorrect information and seeming threatening manner of response to open carry is unacceptable and should be reported to the certifying body. The information is as blatantly false as if they stated that people could legally carry firearms into Ohiorestaurants that serve alcohol, but not bars (yes this is what has come from Ohio cops).

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    You have to take the course through instructors certified by either the NRA or, as in this case, the Ohio Peace Officer Training Commission. I have printouts of the relevant text of the Ohio Revised Code, which I will make available to the other students, even if the cops don't want to acknowledge it. They did encourage us to do our homework...

    The irony is that the Ohio Peace Officer Training Commission is under the attorney general's office - the same people who published the above mentioned pamphlet are the same ones who certified the instructors contradicting it. Typical.

    -ljp


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    With such an abuse of power (given that they are cops and that they are instructors) you should make a complaint. They are using their position to threaten perfectly lawful action and it should not be tolerated. This sort of thing will continue until people step forward to bring it to theconscience of those who certify these instructors.

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    jmelvin wrote:
    With such an abuse of power (given that they are cops and that they are instructors) you should make a complaint. They are using their position to threaten perfectly lawful action and it should not be tolerated. This sort of thing will continue until people step forward to bring it to theconscience of those who certify these instructors.
    I would be tempted to offer to open carry at the time and (lawful) place of the officer(s) choosing, with my lawyer present as a witness to their actions. The ONLY way to stop a bully is to call his bluff.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Lonnie Wilson and I have discussed this issue of inept instructors. If they are certified by the state you need to complain. If they are NRA instructors, you need to call the NRA and complain about them. If enough people do it, this nonsense will stop.

    This nonsense happened in Minnesota (certified through the state). Some instructors were telling people it was a "conceal and carry" permit. Enough people complained and the Minnesota State Police contacted these instructors and threatened to revoke their cert as the law says it is a carry permit and concealment is not required.

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    I knew I'd probably face the same opposition as you Legba, if I brought OC'ing up in the class, so I didn't. Probably the wuss way out, but I wasn't in the mood. I thought the whole class was a joke in the first place, soI didn't want it drug out any further than it already was, I just wanted out of it.

    But to give the instructors credit, they never did emphasize the "you must conceal" thing. I might have spoken up then.

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    Yeah, I just finished my range qualification. I got a perfect score, which is not hard, but the next guy's brass was hitting me in the face, so that threw me off a bit.

    Anyway, it's done and overall, I guess most people probably benefit from the instruction, however remedial and not-wholly-accurate. Off for passport pics and to submit the application next week. Should be good to go by mid-December. One of my xmas presents to myself.

    -ljp

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    Legba wrote:
    Yeah, I just finished my range qualification. I got a perfect score, which is not hard, but the next guy's brass was hitting me in the face, so that threw me off a bit.

    Anyway, it's done and overall, I guess most people probably benefit from the instruction, however remedial and not-wholly-accurate. Off for passport pics and to submit the application next week. Should be good to go by mid-December. One of my xmas presents to myself.

    -ljp
    Congrats! Hopefully you didn't suffer any burns from the wayward brass.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    I thought range time is either pass/fail.

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    Well, it is. You only have to get 14/24 within the outer outline thing. No extra credit for doing better. I got 20 in the inner outline, and only put the 4 outliers within the outer outline because of the brass in my face. I don't always wear eye protection (I'm not normally crowded sardine-like at a range either), but it is definitely recommended (I did this time and will in the future).

    -ljp

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    Yes, please do start wearing the eye protection every time you go shooting.

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    Legba wrote:
    Well, it is. You only have to get 14/24 within the outer outline thing. No extra credit for doing better. I got 20 in the inner outline, and only put the 4 outliers within the outer outline because of the brass in my face. I don't always wear eye protection (I'm not normally crowded sardine-like at a range either), but it is definitely recommended (I did this time and will in the future).

    -ljp
    Where is the number of rounds mentioned in the law for competency in firearms certification? All that is required is that the instructor is satisfied that you can handle the handgun and can relatively hit the target. The pass/fail is objective based on the instructors criteria.
    I know a few that have a CCL that if based on my criteria would not have a CCL.

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    Good question. I don't remember seeing a quantitative marksmanship "score" required in the law. As I understand it, you just have to demonstrate "proficiency," whatever that means. Maybe that's just the departmental requirement. That's scary if that's all cops have to score for certification.

    -ljp

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    My instructor told us we had to hit 80/100 to pass his class. 14/24 is only 58%. That is a bit discouraging.

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    Well, I finally submitted the actual application for the carry permit and was told by the deputy sheriff in charge that, since I admitted having a record, anyone getting their prints flagged can expect to wait 5-6 weeks for a response from the OBCII (state crime database). The law says, IIRC,that they have 45 days to issue the permit, so they are pushing it. I can appreciate that they have a lot more records to process these days for employment checks and whatnot, but the usual wait is only 2 weeks. Maybe they should consider putting more people on record duty in Columbus. Anyway, I dared hope to get this for xmas, but that doesn't look likely. Crime does not pay. ;-/

    -ljp

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    Legba, if the 45 days pass without you receiving the license the relief available to you would be by filing a writ of mandamus against the sheriff. This obviously has the drawbacks of:

    1) Costing you $250 or so in filing fees

    2) Alienating said sheriff, when if fact the delay may be because of the s-l-o-w service sometimes being given by BCI. which by the way is in London Ohio.



    A very few people have gone that route according the the OFCC forum. Oneapplicant in Greene County was above 80 days when his license was finally issued. He didn't file the mandamus writ but went through OFCC and his state legislator to get some help as memory serves.

    The long delays from BCI are supposedly because of all the background checks they have lately started doing for just about anybody that works in daycare and other kid-related jobs. I find this a flimsy excuse at best but I'm not sure we CC applicants can do much about it, since there is virtually no penalty clause when the licenses aren't issued within the legal time limits.

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    Our rathercolorful sheriff here is a gun guy, and I'm sure there's nothing personal in any delay that might arise. I know that my gun rights are fully reinstated - I already got my xmas present for myself - so I guess I can wait without getting embroiled in more legal process. I'm too jaded from the last round to even consider that, unless it becomes really protracted. Will apprise.

    Still, it is curious that I can call FBI/NICS and have myself checked out/approvedin a matter of minutes, even with a record.

    -ljp

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    Legba wrote:
    Well, it is. You only have to get 14/24 within the outer outline thing. No extra credit for doing better. I got 20 in the inner outline, and only put the 4 outliers within the outer outline because of the brass in my face. I don't always wear eye protection (I'm not normally crowded sardine-like at a range either), but it is definitely recommended (I did this time and will in the future).

    -ljp
    Please what was your target ? The reason NRA rules that a round paper plate nine inch or 81/2 by 11 sheet of paper both with no crosshair or dot or dot .With no limit on number of rounds used to hit same,must show safety and finger and eye copticey not bulls eye .

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    We used human silhouette targets, with a bowling-pin shaped inner field you had to get at least 14/24 within, as well as an inner rectangular "center of mass" target area. This was under the auspices of the state police regulations, which isapparently differentfrom the NRA standards. The law says you need to demonstrate competency under either standard, or have some equivalent background (e.g. military).

    -ljp

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    Legba wrote:
    We used human silhouette targets, with a bowling-pin shaped inner field you had to get at least 14/24 within, as well as an inner rectangular "center of mass" target area. This was under the auspices of the state police regulations, which isapparently differentfrom the NRA standards. The law says you need to demonstrate competency under either standard, or have some equivalent background (e.g. military).

    -ljp
    Thank you for reply . Now if human silhouette targets where it is against NRA policy and if NRA instructor if known would and should be disiplined .Also if a CPL class Bowling=pins are NO NO Round hard with risks bad .

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