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Thread: Concealed Carry Gone Bad

  1. #1
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    I've mentioned before on here that I prefer to carry openly and carry everywhere but unfortunately that is not the reality in our land of the scared. I've also mentioned before that I really don't like leaving a firearm unattended due to the risk of it being stolen and/or used against someone else. I also have several holsters for different purposes. If I'm in a "green" establishment meaning firearms are legal and nobody will have a problem with it, I'll carry in my belt holster with the gun visible. If I'm in a "yellow" area where it isn't illegal but would cause a problem (i.e. churches, offices, etc.), I'll use the same holster but put my shirt over it. It may print a bit but nobody will really notice. Unfortunately, some of us either choose or have to go to "red" establishments where carrying is illegal (bars, schools, state buildings, etc.). Due to the concern listed above, I was in the habit of carrying anyway in such establishments but in a IWB holster with a loose shirt over it and now a jacket over that making it "impossible" for someone to know I was carrying.

    Anyway, to get to the point I basically got busted carrying into an establishment that prohibits weapons. Not that I should admit to lawbreaking on the internet but I don't think it is worth the cops' time anyway. I was in a bar having a good time when some drunk girl was flirting with me and ended up rubbing her hand against the back of my jacket which caused it to lift up and expose the gun. So the woman manager on duty comes over and confronts me about it with several bouncers in the background. She was not too happy about it but didn't seem too unreasonable either. She told me to leave the gun in the car which I did. She told me that I seem like a reasonable person to her who is simply concerned about my safety and the safety of others but that carrying a gun intosuch an environment is more likely to get me in trouble than help a situation. She explained that the liquor laws do not allow firearms where alcohol is served and that if something were to happen and I used the gun the media and the justice system would spin it. She is probably right because suppose some drunk started beating someone to death with a bar stool and I shot them and killed them. Even though state law would make it a legal shoot as a justifiable third-party defensive homicide, the fact that you were drinking alcohol and carrying a gun in a bar probably wouldn't look good to the jury let alone the judge. She said don't think for an instance that you can trust these judges.

    Not to go on and on but I went to a tactical shop and bought a car safe that I can lock the gun in and then lock to a safe place in the car. That way I don't have toworry about theft and it is legal at the same time. It just goes to show you though that even really good concealment can be discovered. In some ways it almost seems like carrying a gun is more trouble than it is worth. Obviously it improves safety but the laws make carrying such a nuissance. So many places prohibit weapons and I have yet to enter a state building where there is actually someone there to secure your weapon for you. Personally, I don't really think it is a good idea to be drinking while carrying because if you dohave to use it your reaction time is slower and your judgment is skewed. That problem would be solved, however, if bars actually had armed guards on the premisis who actually did their jobs and allowed you to check your guns in for secure storage. As our society continues to adopt more of this foolish "bleeding heart" nonsense I guess we will have to either get smart or get slick because when it comes to the few who wish to be sovereign individuals in charge of their own safety and well-being in a society filled with helpless robotic consumers, the odds are not in your favor. Any thoughts?



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    Regular Member AZkopper's Avatar
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    +1000

    I agree with all of your post, espcially your breakdown of 'green-zones', 'yellow-zones' and 'red zones'.

    I also agree with your pre-incident view of 'red-zones' (out of sight, out of mind), and completely understand your 'conversion' for 'red-zones'.

    How a person handles 'red-zones' is a personal choice, and he/she must factor in the ramifications of breaking the law and the ramifications of being sued for wrongful death (because of 'impairment').

    A gun carrier must weigh his precieved need for security vs. the possible legal reprocussions. Either way, he/she may loose. The gun carrier must abide by the consiquences of that action--no whining allowed!:?

    While strictly speaking, legally there is a Right and Wrong answer, morally, it is a personal decision.

    I'm glad they didn't call the po po on you and just asked you to stow it outside.

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    I dearly loved my time in Arizona, but the fact that the legislators couldn't get a restaurant w/ alcohol carry bill past Nappy was quite frustrating. From a practical standpoint regarding the 2nd ammendment, and whatever Arizona Constitutional laws provide for, it would seem to me that barring gun owners from carrying in the majority of restaurants is an undue burden and restriction against the right to bear arms. Although my particular beliefs are that the right to keep and bear arms is not to be infringed just as spelled out in the U.S. Constitution, looking at the number of restrictions at the national and state levels this just isn't so in the practical aspect of where we stand today. Since the D.C. gun ban was considered un-Constitutional in that it practically outlawed the possession of most handguns in the district (which are common weapons), I would think that logically a case could be made that restriction against the bearing of arms by sober individuals in the majority of restaurants (places that are common destinations for most people) goes too far as well.

    Yes I know that there are restaurants which don't serve alcohol, but they are very limited in number in Arizona, especially with consideration to the number of restaurants which do serve alcohol, even in family type restaurants where the average person might think that no alcohol (including beer and wine) would be served.

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    What I have noticed is that once you start carrying you don't feel too comfortable not carrying. A habitual lottery ticket buyer will not want to miss purchasing a ticket because that will be the time his numbers are called. Likewise, I would hate to be the one who carries all the time for 20 years and never encounters a problem until the one day the gun is locked up somewhere is when someone walks in and goes postal. This happened to someone at Luby's in Texas who was unable to get to his gun which was in his car at the time when the massacre happened. I am not paranoid nor do I expect these types of events to happen as they are statistically rare but I'd rather have the gun and not need it vs. not having it and hoping I won't need it.



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    AZkopper wrote:
    How a person handles 'red-zones' is a personal choice, and he/she must factor in the ramifications of breaking the law and the ramifications of being sued for wrongful death (because of 'impairment').

    A gun carrier must weigh his perceived need for security vs. the possible legal repercussions. Either way, he/she may loose. The gun carrier must abide by the consequences of that action--no whining allowed!:?
    That's how it was for me back in Chicago. Carrying was totally illegal, but we still did it for our protection.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    protector84 wrote:
    She is probably right because suppose some drunk started beating someone to death with a bar stool and I shot them and killed them. Even though state law would make it a legal shoot as a justifiable third-party defensive homicide, the fact that you were drinking alcohol and carrying a gun in a bar probably wouldn't look good to the jury let alone the judge. She said don't think for an instance that you can trust these judges.
    So, in this woman's mind, it's better to not be able to prevent a person from being beaten to death with a barstool than it is to risk having to explain why you just saved a person's life after drinking a beer?

    And we blame only the liberals for insanity. :quirky Last I checked the irrational fear of alcohol is largely a puritanical (read: conservative) hangup.

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    And the fear of firearms and increased senseless gun control laws is a Liberal (read: Democrat) hangup. :P

    P.S.
    Love Beer and Spirits.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    dreamcro wrote:
    And the fear of firearms and increased senseless gun control laws is a Liberal (read: Democrat) hangup. :P
    And that's exactly my point. Together the effect is far worse than either side alone. We free Americans are being squeezed from both sides by the tyrannical anti-freedom forces of partisan politics.

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    Don't blame me I voted Libertarian. I agree with the Constitution and that's all.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    dreamcro wrote:
    Don't blame me¬* I voted Libertarian. I agree with the Constitution and that's all.
    And that's what I love about OCDO.

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    I've been to this nightclub before and the manager does seem pretty sensible about a lot of things. I believe what she meant was "no good deed goes unpunished" and unfortunately it is a reality in our society in many ways. While saving someone's life is a noble deed, in today's world you could be basically turning your life upside down for years to come by doing so. It would probably look better to the courts if you didn't have the gun on you but ran to the car to get it vs. already carrying illegally in a bar. It is not just about doing the right thing, it is selling the police, jury, and ultimately the judge that you were doing the right thing. If someone was threatening me with a baseball bat, it would look better in court if I tried the pepperspray first before finally pulling the gun and ending the person's life. Itis illogicalbut I do not trust the system at all. Look at what they are doing to this 8-year-old boy if you don't believe me.

    The manager doesn't strike me as some liberal bleeding heart. She followed the liquor laws as she was supposed to, she didn't get hysterical about it, and really didn't make a big issue over it, and rather casually explained the rules of the establishment.



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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I didn't say anything about the manager, other than I disagree with her (and apparently your) analysis. You're not going to have time to run to your car if you need your gun. That barstool will have already split the guy's skull by the time you return.

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    That's always been my opinion that the best place fora gun is on your hip. Unless you are in your own home with the doors locked and have full control over your residence it is a good idea to have the gun with you as you will encounter random mixes of people and you just never know when you may actually need it. Since it is illegal to have a gun in a bar it is not like the manager can condone it because she has to follow the rules of the liquor board to keep the liquor license. If something were to happen, you may have time to get to the car but there is also a good chance that you won't have time. If someone was shooting up the place, I would not want the gun to be in the car. Short of someone going postal and you being a "hero," your use of a gun in a bar to save someone's life would be weighed against the fact that a) you were drinking b) you were carrying illegally and c) what were you doing in that establishment that you "needed" a gun? I am not saying I agree with this because I don't. It is ridiculous and I even believe you should be able to carry guns on airplanes. The point is that the court judges look at things different than me or you and I don't trust the justice system. A system that putssomeone away for 20 years for marijuana and gives just a few years to someone else for murder is not a system I want to answer to. So when it really comes down to it, you should either leave the gun in the car or conceal it so well that the chance of someone discovering it is rare, and don't display or use it unless the circumstances are very severe (like someone shooting up the place).



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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    There was a time when (most places) you could hand yer gunbelt to the barkeep upon entering. Some places... you can still do this, but much fewer than even 10 years ago. Fewer people open carry now than they used to as well.

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    we should organize a petition to change the law.. I just moved here from idaho and Idahos law regarding liquor is : that u cant concealedcarry while intoxicated.

    it doesn not prohibit carrying in an establishment that sales liquor..

    now changing topic......

    Since I have been in arizona, arrived on november 20th 2008

    I have been targeted from strong arm robbery twice:

    1) corner of dobson and 8th ave (mesa) at 7-11 store 3:40 am

    was approached by 2 people wearing hoodies on their heads, I deactivated the serpa lock and went into low ready and gave verbal commands as they approached. they turned around and ran off, cashier saw what happened and I asked the cashier not to call police and he didnt.



    2) mcdonalds right off I-17 truck route in s. phoenix by bank one ball park 4:15am

    homeless guy approached my truck.



    both times I used Verbal Judo and the determining factor was my hand on my

    glock 31. criminals see those idaho plates and confuse me with a victim.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    You must not look evil enuff... :what:

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    marshaul wrote:
    protector84 wrote:
    She is probably right because suppose some drunk started beating someone to death with a bar stool and I shot them and killed them. Even though state law would make it a legal shoot as a justifiable third-party defensive homicide, the fact that you were drinking alcohol and carrying a gun in a bar probably wouldn't look good to the jury let alone the judge. She said don't think for an instance that you can trust these judges.
    So, in this woman's mind, it's better to not be able to prevent a person from being beaten to death with a barstool than it is to risk having to explain why you just saved a person's life after drinking a beer?

    And we blame only the liberals for insanity. :quirky Last I checked the irrational fear of alcohol is largely a puritanical (read: conservative) hangup.
    I suspect that she knew the op after having seen him several times (assumptions here) and did support our 2A rights, but she was also STUCK with the STATE alcohol regulations and wanting to keep her alcohol license...

    Bottom line... WE ALL MAKE CHOICES! and face consequences!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Hiredgun30 wrote:
    we should organize a petition to change the law.. I just moved here from idaho and Idahos law regarding liquor is : that u cant concealed¬*carry while intoxicated.

    it doesn not prohibit carrying in an establishment that sales liquor..

    now changing topic......

    Since¬* I have been in arizona¬*, arrived on november 20th 2008

    ¬*I have been targeted from strong arm robbery twice:

    1) corner of dobson and 8th ave (mesa) at 7-11 store¬*¬* 3:40 am

    ¬*was approached by 2 people wearing hoodies on their heads, I deactivated the serpa lock and went into low ready and gave verbal commands as they approached. they turned around and ran off, cashier saw what happened and I asked the cashier not to call police and he didnt.

    ¬*

    2) mcdonalds right off I-17 truck route in s. phoenix by bank one ball park 4:15am¬*¬*¬*

    homeless guy approached my truck.¬*¬*¬*

    ¬*

    both times I used Verbal Judo and the determining factor was my hand on my

    glock 31.¬* criminals see those idaho plates and confuse me with a victim.
    Curious question: How did you know you were targeted for strong-arm robbery in each situation?

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    rkphx wrote:
    Hiredgun30 wrote:
    we should organize a petition to change the law.. I just moved here from idaho and Idahos law regarding liquor is : that u cant concealed¬*carry while intoxicated.

    it doesn not prohibit carrying in an establishment that sales liquor..

    now changing topic......

    Since¬* I have been in arizona¬*, arrived on november 20th 2008

    ¬*I have been targeted from strong arm robbery twice:

    1) corner of dobson and 8th ave (mesa) at 7-11 store¬*¬* 3:40 am

    ¬*was approached by 2 people wearing hoodies on their heads, I deactivated the serpa lock and went into low ready and gave verbal commands as they approached. they turned around and ran off, cashier saw what happened and I asked the cashier not to call police and he didnt.

    ¬*

    2) mcdonalds right off I-17 truck route in s. phoenix by bank one ball park 4:15am¬*¬*¬*

    homeless guy approached my truck.¬*¬*¬*

    ¬*

    both times I used Verbal Judo and the determining factor was my hand on my

    glock 31.¬* criminals see those idaho plates and confuse me with a victim.
    Curious question: How did you know you were targeted for strong-arm robbery in each situation?
    I was going to ask the same thing. Homeless people approach my car all the time, and I've never found brandishing necessary to get them to go elsewhere. My experience is that homeless people are disinclined to robbery.

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    hey rk

    well I learned at P.O.S.T. that 65 % of an interaction is non verbal. I also recognized " the felony stare" on all 3 people. criminals have their own language (bothverbal and non verbal)and i would suggest gun owners know this.

    for the bum... it was more of an opportunity that presented itself. his questions were so pointless, it was just to buy time. he attempted to bait me into shaking his hand with my right hand, hehad his left hand in his back pocket,he also was looking in my cab and looking and scanning for trafficwhile asking me the pointless questions. when i shook his hand with my left hand he squeezed and wouldnt let go.. you would have had to be there.

    any othermonday morning quarterbacks need to read "Inside the criminal mind " by stanton samenow or "games criminal play" or even " in sheeps clothing"

    3 great books to educate gun owners about criminals.

    jeff cooper had it right when he said "most people are already dead before they realize they were in danger" !




    as for the mesa incident.... the closest route from where they crossed the road and the front entrance to 7-11 would have put them 20 feet from my truck.. considering one guy went and walked infront of my truck and the other went behind my truck to approach me, also Iobserved them looking around while walking up to me .I would say that myobservation is correct.


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    Hiredgun30 wrote:
    hey rk

    well I learned at P.O.S.T. that 65 % of an interaction is non verbal. I also recognized " the felony stare" on all 3 people. criminals have their own language (bothverbal and non verbal)and i would suggest gun owners know this.

    for the bum... it was more of an opportunity that presented itself. his questions were so pointless, it was just to buy time. he attempted to bait me into shaking his hand with my right hand, hehad his left hand in his back pocket,he also was looking in my cab and looking and scanning for trafficwhile asking me the pointless questions. when i shook his hand with my left hand he squeezed and wouldnt let go.. you would have had to be there.

    any othermonday morning quarterbacks need to read "Inside the criminal mind " by stanton samenow or "games criminal play" or even " in sheeps clothing"

    3 great books to educate gun owners about criminals.

    jeff cooper had it right when he said "most people are already dead before they realize they were in danger" !




    as for the mesa incident.... the closest route from where they crossed the road and the front entrance to 7-11 would have put them 20 feet from my truck.. considering one guy went and walked infront of my truck and the other went behind my truck to approach me, also Iobserved them looking around while walking up to me .I would say that myobservation is correct.
    I won't argue with your assessment!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  22. #22
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    Deep down I don't think the bar manager had a personal disagreement with me carrying a gun but as someone else recently said, if she wants to keep the business open she has to follow state liquor laws. If she allows me to carry a gun on the premises and the authorities found out, the bar could be cited and even a suspension placed on their license. No business is going to risk its entire operation over one individual.

    One of the carry rights that I think more gun owners should focus on is ridding our society of "weapons free zones." You should be able to carry a gun ANYWHERE without exception and any private establishment that refuses should have to be personally liable for your safety. I want to enjoy life without being paranoid but at the same time I have to do these "what-if" scenarios in my mind once in a while because I refuse to be a victim at least not without a fight.

    I would like someone here to tell me what I am supposed to do if I am sitting in a nightclub with my girlfriend enjoying a nice bevarage, the front door opens, and a man in a long black coat walks in, pulls out a rifle, and starts shooting randomly. Because bars are "weapons free zones" I would actually have to get me and my girlfriend out to the nearest exit and I probably wouldn't even be able to and if so I would already be severely wounded. Then I would have to get to the car which is a block away, unlock the car door, and then unlock the safe, and then load the gun. Then if I wanted to goback in and be the "hero" of the day, by the time I could even be in a position to do something, I would be walking over nothing but bodies. Sorry for the graphic images but apparently nobody in authority or much of the general public has learned anything about 9/11, Virginia Tech, or Columbine all of which were "weapons free zones."



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    protector84 wrote:
    SNIP...
    One of the carry rights that I think more gun owners should focus on is ridding our society of "weapons free zones." You should be able to carry a gun ANYWHERE without exception and any private establishment that refuses should have to be personally liable for your safety. I want to enjoy life without being paranoid but at the same time I have to do these "what-if" scenarios in my mind once in a while because I refuse to be a victim at least not without a fight.

    SNIP....
    I agree....

    BAN WEAPONS FREE ZONES

    unless that is where the weapons are FREE!!!!

    JoeSparky
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  24. #24
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    Another example is from a friend who said that after 9/11, President Bush should have come up to the microphone and said the following:

    "Folks, we are in a dangerous world. If you are traveling anytime soon and own a gun, bring it on your next flight."



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