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Thread: Dickson City, PA lawsuit filed by open carriers grinds forward

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/arti...104031_loc.prt
    News NEWS UPDATES DC open-carry case slowly moves along Published: Sunday, November 23, 2008 4:19 AM EST DC open-carry case slowly moves along

    A federal court case between several gun-rights advocates and Dickson City borough and its police officers is moving slowly along, with any trial — if the case goes that route — more than a year away.

    The suit stems from a May 9 incident in which police asked for identification from a group of customers openly carrying firearms at Old Country Buffet in Dickson City.

    At least one person, Richard Banks of Fairview Twp., Luzerne County, refused to provide a driver’s license and was detained. Roger McCarren of White Mills, Wayne County, had his gun taken because the state police gun sales database indicated it had been purchased by his wife, Darcie.

    The plaintiffs’ attorney, Bob Magee, said both sides are taking depositions. It is too early to say if the case might be settled out of court, he said.

    “A statistically large number (of cases) are settled,” he said. “We certainly haven’t started talking about it.”

    Over the summer, defendants filed an answer to the original complaint filed in June that denied any police stop, search or seizure was illegal.

    “The actions and conduct of the defendants, to the extent they occurred as alleged, were objectively reasonable under the circumstances of which defendants were then and there aware, and they enjoy a qualified immunity from all liability,” the defendants’ court filing reads.

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    Just curious as to what does everyone hope the outcome from this will be?

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    Keep us updated as much as the lawyers will allow you to.

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    " Roger McCarren of White Mills, Wayne County, had his gun taken because the state police gun sales database indicated it had been purchased by his wife, Darcie".

    Say it ain't so. No records. They hadda guess.(Sarcasm)






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    any links to the PDF of the filed papers? i like reading the cases

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    agentw0 wrote:
    Just curious as to what does everyone hope the outcome from this will be?
    ummmm... a win
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    rmodel65 wrote:
    any links to the PDF of the filed papers? i like reading the cases
    http://www.paopencarry.org/dicksoncity/documents.html

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    agentw0 wrote:
    Just curious as to what does everyone hope the outcome from this will be?
    ummmm... a win
    Higher education and minimum acceptable standards of conduct maybe.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    SGT Jensen wrote:
    agentw0 wrote:
    Just curious as to what does everyone hope the outcome from this will be?
    ummmm... a win
    Higher education and minimum acceptable standards of conduct maybe.

    Yata hey
    Money damages.

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    Unfortunately in PA, the state police have been allowed by the PA Supreme Court to keep handgun sale records even though gun registration was specifically banned by the legislature. However, you can not get in trouble if you're not on the list.

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    Swampbeast wrote:
    Unfortunately in PA, the state police have been allowed by the PA Supreme Court to keep handgun sale records even though gun registration was specifically banned by the legislature. However, you can not get in trouble if you're not on the list.
    But the police are getting into trouble if they attempt to take any action based upon that list - i.e., sezing guns, or forcibly transferring the guns to other persons. The Pa. C. Ct. ruled in ACSL v. Rendell that the transfer data base was not an unlawful registration scheme because it did not constitute an ownership database at all!

    Nobody should put up with any serial number running nonesense in PA any more.

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    Hot guns, reported to the police as such, show up on the LEADS database. They can tell if a gun is stolen in a matter of seconds from a squad car. This "we need to confiscate this until it can be investigated and the rightful owner will have to recover it after we OK it" is nonsense. If they had cause to complain that they thought someone had a stolen gun, they'd arrest them for it and not just take the gun.

    -ljp

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    Mike wrote:
    Swampbeast wrote:
    Unfortunately in PA, the state police have been allowed by the PA Supreme Court to keep handgun sale records even though gun registration was specifically banned by the legislature. However, you can not get in trouble if you're not on the list.
    But the police are getting into trouble if they attempt to take any action based upon that list - i.e., sezing guns, or forcibly transferring the guns to other persons. The Pa. C. Ct. ruled in ACSL v. Rendell that the transfer data base was not an unlawful registration scheme because it did not constitute an ownership database at all!

    Nobody should put up with any serial number running nonesense in PA any more.
    Regardless of whether the database itself is legal (and I know that's a sore subject)there's no law preventing someone from giving the gun as a gift to anyone who is legally able to posses it. Does PA law require folks to report such gifts? If not, the information in the database is nearly useless; besides, how hard is it to figure that a husband and wife might share a weapon?

    This case should result in sufficient monetary damages that municipalities wise up and leave OCers alone.

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    XD-GEM wrote:
    Regardless of whether the database itself is legal (and I know that's a sore subject)there's no law preventing someone from giving the gun as a gift to anyone who is legally able to posses it. Does PA law require folks to report such gifts? If not, the information in the database is nearly useless; besides, how hard is it to figure that a husband and wife might share a weapon?

    This case should result in sufficient monetary damages that municipalities wise up and leave OCers alone.
    In most states you can sell or give away your handguns - see our map on private transfers.

    But in PA it is unlawful to transfer handguns outside of PICS checks thru dealers/Sheriffs or to family members. BUT, it is not unlawful to buy in private sales so the new owner's title is not clouded by the unlawful action of the transferor!

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    So are you saying that in Pa. a husband and wife can't legally share all of their property?

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    That might cause and interesting situation in divorce courts. In "community property" states, where one spouse is a "prohibited person," can they claim entitlement to the value of firearms they aren't legally allowed to receive as part of a property settlement, since they can't claim the guns themselves? That would suck if you had to sell your guns and give a spouse half the proceeds, if they weren't allowed to have any ownership interest in the stuff to begin with.

    Yes, I think about such minutiae all the time...

    -ljp

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    Gordie wrote:
    So are you saying that in Pa. a husband and wife can't legally share all of their property?
    Read my post carefully and the PA Uniform Firearms Act.

    Technically, a wife may not "lend" a handgun to her husband unless he holds a LTCF, but she may "transfer" it to him as a special exception.

    PA gun laws are onerous - that's why they score so high on the Brady bunch list.

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    (ETA: that ike beat me to it )

    Let's clear this up.

    Per 18Pa.C.S.§6111(c) it is generally unlawfull to transfer a handgun to another party unless a form SP4-113 ("Application/Record of Sale) form is executed by the Sheriff or a FFL dealer.


    Exceptions include between spouses:
    (c) Duty of other persons.--Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sheriff's office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller of the firearm. The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild

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    Mike wrote:
    Gordie wrote:
    So are you saying that in Pa. a husband and wife can't legally share all of their property?
    Read my post carefully and the PA Uniform Firearms Act.

    Technically, a wife may not "lend" a handgun to her husband unless he holds a LTCF, but she may "transfer" it to him as a special exception.

    PA gun laws are onerous - that's why they score so high on the Brady bunch list.
    So, legally speaking, they can't just share.

    Imagine if all property were treated this way:

    Your wife can't drive your car unless you transfer it to her."Your car is blocking mine in, just sign it over to me real quick."Imagine the lines at the DMV after that one.

    If you owned a house andyour spouse'sname isn'ton it, what would happen ifyouleft for a while and she was still home? Would they say that she was trespassing?

    Just another case of guns being treated differently because they are "evil".

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    Sorry Patriot, I was writing my last post while you were posting. Still, it looks like there is no provision for co-ownership of a firearm, just a paperless transfer.

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    Gordie wrote:
    Sorry Patriot, I was writing my last post while you were posting. Still, it looks like there is no provision for co-ownership of a firearm, just a paperless transfer.
    The paperless transfer essentially negates the issue... Might be why it was specified as an exception..

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    Mike wrote:
    The Pa. C. Ct. ruled in ACSL v. Rendell that the transfer data base was not an unlawful registration scheme because it did not constitute an ownership database at all!
    The case was ACSL v. Ridge. A copy of the ruling can be found here.

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    gnbrotz wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    The Pa. C. Ct. ruled in ACSL v. Rendell that the transfer data base was not an unlawful registration scheme because it did not constitute an ownership database at all!
    The case was ACSL v. Ridge. A copy of the ruling can be found here.
    It isn't a feline; its a cat = same difference.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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