• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Spoke to a Lawyer....

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

mariner wrote:
VCDL President
It's covered in common law and case law in VA. We are a stand your ground state (you can stand your ground anywhere where you can legally be). Only if you are part of the problem must you retreat.
It would be an improvement we were covered by an explicit Castle Doctrine; that may deter prosecutions in places like Norfolk.
Not to mention... it would deter crime all over the state!

TFred
 

W.E.G.

Newbie
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
503
Location
all over VA, ,
imported post

130,000 concealed handgun permit holders in Virginia is already a pretty damn good deterrent.

Specific immunity would be nice.
 

user

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,516
Location
Northern Piedmont
imported post

Toad wrote:
We are out 'shopping' for a lawyer just incase we need to call one. He has taken several SD with firearm related cases and seems well versed in others. He did say that since VA doesn't have a castle doctrine law on the books that you better be damn sure that you have no where else to go before drawing. He stated that a SD shooting can be very difficult to defend if you are not cornered.
So it got me thinking, just what would constitute 'cornered'?
Has anyone else heard something similar from another lawyer (not the arm chair type)?

With all possible respect to my learned colleague, that's hogwash (to use the technical term).

Virginia does have the Castle Doctrine, which has been part of the common law since well before 1604 (when the last important case on the subject was decided). But the Castle Doctrine doesn't say what people seem to think it says. It's basically the same thing you get with the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution - it's designed to keep agents of the Sovereign from bursting in without knocking, without warrants, and without announcing themselves and stating the authority by which they enter.

There is no requirement that anyone in Virginia retreat before defending himself. It may be wise to do so, or to at least obtain cover, or at the minimum concealment. But whether or not one retreats is legally irrelevant.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
imported post

user wrote:
Toad wrote:
We are out 'shopping' for a lawyer just incase we need to call one. He has taken several SD with firearm related cases and seems well versed in others. He did say that since VA doesn't have a castle doctrine law on the books that you better be damn sure that you have no where else to go before drawing. He stated that a SD shooting can be very difficult to defend if you are not cornered.
So it got me thinking, just what would constitute 'cornered'?
Has anyone else heard something similar from another lawyer (not the arm chair type)?

With all possible respect to my learned colleague, that's hogwash (to use the technical term).

Virginia does have the Castle Doctrine, which has been part of the common law since well before 1604 (when the last important case on the subject was decided). But the Castle Doctrine doesn't say what people seem to think it says. It's basically the same thing you get with the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution - it's designed to keep agents of the Sovereign from bursting in without knocking, without warrants, and without announcing themselves and stating the authority by which they enter.

There is no requirement that anyone in Virginia retreat before defending himself. It may be wise to do so, or to at least obtain cover, or at the minimum concealment. But whether or not one retreats is legally irrelevant.

The courts agree with User: http://www.virginia1774.org/Page6.html(I hope that folks are beginning to recognize that www.virginia1774.org is a great resource:)).
[align=center]No Duty to Retreat in Your Home/Curtilage[/align]

"One, in his own curtilage, who is free from fault in bringing on the combat, when attacked by another, has the same right of conduct, without any retreat (i. e. to stand at bay and resist as fault), even to the taking of life, that one has when within his own home. See note to 5 Am. & Eng. Anno. Cas. 999 and cases cited, among them Beard v. United States, 158 U.S. 550, 15 S. Ct. 962, 39 L. Ed. 1086, approved in Alberty v. United States, 162 U.S. 499, 16 S. Ct. 864, 40 L. Ed. 1051. What force one, on his own premises, may use to eject another therefrom, short of endangering human life or of doing great bodily harm, was the subject of consideration in Montgomery's Case, 98 Va. 840, 842-3, 36 S.E. 371; Montgomery v. Commonwealth, 99 Va. 833, 835-6, 37 S.E. 841. But in no case, even within one's own home, or curtilage, is a person wholly justified in taking the life of another, who has entered the home or curtilage peaceably on an implied license, merely to punish or subdue him or to compel him to leave the premises, where there is no apparent intent on the part of the latter to commit any felony.

As said in 1 Bish. New Cr. Law (8th Ed.), sections 857, 858: "* * the general rule is that while a man may use all reasonable and necessary force to defend his real and personal estate, of which he is in the actual possession, against another who comes to dispossess him without right, he cannot innocently carry this defense to the extent of killing the aggressor. If no other way is open to him, he must yield, and get himself righted by resort to the law. A seeming exception to this rule is the --

"Defense of the Castle. — In the early times our forefathers were compelled to protect themselves in their habitations by converting them into holds of defense: and so the dwelling house was called the castle. To this condition of things the law has conformed, resulting in the familiar doctrine that while a man keeps the doors of his house closed, no other may break and enter it, except in particular circumstances to make an arrest or the like - cases not within the line of our present exposition. From this doctrine is derived another: namely, that the persons within the house may exercise all needful force to keep aggressors out, even to the taking of life. As observed by Campbell, J., in Michigan, 'a man is not obliged to retreat if assaulted in his dwelling, but may use such means as are absolutely necessary to repel the assailant from his house or prevent his forcible entry, even to the taking of life' * *."

But the same learned work continues, in section 858, as follows:

" 1. Waiving Castle. — One may waive the protection of his castle by permitting another to enter; * *."

" 2. Putting out of the Castle. — If a man enters another's dwelling house peaceable on an implied license, he cannot be ejected except on request to leave, followed by no more than the necessary and proper force, even though misbehaving himself therein.

* * Hence a needless battery, resulting in death, employed in ejecting an intruder from the dwelling-house, will constitute felonious homicide."

There is no evidence in the case in judgment tending to show that the deceased entered the premises of the accused by force. He was there, and was greeted in a manner which indicated that he was there by permission of the accused, before the affray began. His subsequent conduct, granting that it was misconduct, did not justify the killing of him, unless that conduct was such as to justify it on the part of the accused under the settled doctrine applicable to the killing of an assailant by one in defence of his own person.

Therefore, none of the instructions in the case should have been predicated upon the existence or non-existence of the circumstance of the ordering of the deceased off the premises, since that is an immaterial circumstance so far as the instant case is concerned and could serve no purpose but to mislead the jury, unless they were more fully instructed on that subject than they were."

"The only case in which the law does not require the party to retreat at all, or under any circumstances, is when he' is assaulted in his own house; there he need not fly as far as he can; for he has the protection of his house to excuse him from flying; as that would be to give up by his flight the possession of his house to his adversary. But in this as in other cases, the assault must be of such a character as to expose him to imminent danger. "
Dodson v. Commonwealth, 159 Va. 976, 979, 167 S.E. 260, 260 (1933).

as opposed to:

[font=Arial,Helvetica]No Duty to Retreat When Doing a Lawful Act and Suddenly Attacked[/font]

Decarlos Coleman v. Commonwealth, Va. App. (2002 Unpublished)

"Appellant next contends the trial court erred in refusing to instruct the jury on self-defense. We disagree.
"Self-defense is an affirmative defense which the accused must prove by introducing sufficient evidence to raise a reasonable doubt about his guilt." Smith v. Commonwealth, 17 Va. App. 68, 71, 435 S.E.2d 414, 416 (1993) (citing McGhee v. Commonwealth, 219 Va. 560, 562, 248 S.E.2d 808, 810 (1978); Yarborough v. Commonwealth, 217 Va. 971, 979, 234 S.E.2d 286, 292 (1977)). "[A] person assaulted while in the discharge of a lawful act, and reasonably apprehending that his assailant will do him bodily harm, has the right to repel the assault by all the force he deems necessary, and is not compelled to retreat from his assailant, but may, in turn, become the assailant, inflicting bodily wounds until his person is out of danger." Dodson v. Commonwealth, 159 Va. 976, 979, 167 S.E. 260, 260 (1933) (quoting Jackson's Case, 96 Va. 107, 30 S.E. 452 (1898))."

See Also : Gilbert v. Commonwealth, 28 Va. App. 466, 473, 506 S.E.2d 543, 546 (1998).


[align=left]stay safe.[/align]
[align=left]skidmark[/align]



[align=center]
[/align]
 

vtme_grad98

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2006
Messages
385
Location
Virginia Beach, VA, ,
imported post

skidmark wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
To Phil;

VCDL member here. Is there any chance that the Virginia legislature will be considering a Castle Doctrine bill this year and even better.. any chance that it might see becoming a law this summer?

I for one am opposed to legislating "Castle Doctrine" or "Stand Your Ground" in Virginia. The common law and case law, IMNSHO (IANAL), serve me better than some law that most likely will have exclusions and restrictions that cannot be debated in trial.

What I would like to see is Civil Immunity - which too many people mistakenly call "castle doctrine". If I am sucessful in my affirmative defense of justifiable or excusable murder, Civil Immunity would prevent the heirs and estate of the BG from suing me for damages such as, but not limited to, unlawful killing, violation of civil rights, loss of consortium, lost future earnings, and/or child/spousal support.

stay safe.

skidmark

During Lobby Day, the topic of Castle Doctrine came up while talking with one of the Delegates (I can't remember who for the life of me). His response was that, as a lawyer, he didn't really see a purpose for a Castle Doctrine law in this state because Virginia is a "strict liability" state. With strict liability, if the person trying to sue has any blame at all, he has no case. In states with relative liability (I may have the term wrong), an award would be decided, and then the amount the plaintiff would actually receive would be reduced based on what percentage of responsibility he is believed to have had in the situation occuring in the first place.

So, based on what he had to say, if someone is in your house illegally and you defend yourself, their family can't sue. Well, technically, they could try to sue, but it wouldn't go anywhere. As such, it's not likely that any lawyer with a clue would waste his time on a suit like that.
 

darthmord

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Messages
998
Location
Norfolk, Virginia, USA
imported post

I've always held the opinion...

If one has bad things befall them while in the commission of a crime, they cannot under any circumstances, sue anyone for any crimeor bad thing happening against them.

Thus, if you are a bad guy and after B&E, you break your leg on the hapless home owner's stairs, tough cookies. You can't sue him. You were B&E and thus already in the wrong. Take it a a sign of the universe telling you to get a new line of work.

IOW, no profit should be realized on the part of the criminal(s) from any crime(s) the criminal(s) participates in.
 
Top