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Thread: Guns at UW-Madison?

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    http://badgerherald.com/news/2008/11...on_hopes_f.php



    I could barely get through this once. No university allows firearms on its campus? Self defense is not a right? Self defense is not a justification for carrying concealed?


    Organization hopes for campus handgun rights
    by Mallory Cybulski Monday, November 24, 2008 Student groups supporting the right to carry concealed weapons on campus are preparing to push for legislation in their favor when state governments reconvene in January.
    David Burnett, board member at large for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, said in an e-mail Friday the goal of the organization is to ensure holders of concealed handgun permits can enjoy the same rights on college campuses that current laws afford them virtually everywhere else.
    According to Burnett, SCCC formed shortly after the Virginia Tech shooting as a national non-partisan grassroots organization comprised of students, faculty, parents of college students and “concerned citizens.”
    Since its beginning, the SCCC has grown in popularity and now includes a chapter at UW, Burnett added.
    “The benefit of carrying concealed weapons on campus is the same as it is anywhere else where people carry concealed: self-defense,” Burnett said.
    Howard Schweber, associate professor of political science at UW, said although SCCC has presented self-defense as a legitimate reason to carry weapons, reason does not translate into a legal or constitutional right.
    “Being a student at college means living within the regulations and authority of that college,” Schweber said. “I have never heard of a university that permits carrying concealed weapons.”
    Burnett said Wisconsin is relatively unique in that the state does not have a statutory provision for concealed carry. However, there are statutes pertaining to where concealed weapons can or cannot be carried.
    Specifically looking at campus buildings, Wisconsin statute states “any person who goes armed with a firearm in any building owned or leased by the state or any political subdivision of the state is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.”
    The statute also maintains that self-defense is not a justification for carrying a concealed weapon.
    Dane County Assistant District Attorney Mike Verveer said he supports the Wisconsin law for concealed weapons as it currently exists.
    “I think that allowing people to carry concealed weapons is a recipe for disaster, and I respectfully disagree with those who advocate their use,” Verveer said.
    Although he acknowledges why some believe students should be armed in light of the “awful incidents that have occurred recently throughout the country,” Verveer said he believes this method is the wrong way to approach personal safety on campus.
    “I believe that having students, faculty and staff armed with weapons would only perhaps cause more of these tragedies to occur and not less,” Verveer said. “Whether a tragedy occurs in the heat of the moment or under the influence of something, if you are armed, this will increase the potential for a weapon to be used.”
    According to Verveer, Madison used to have stricter handgun control ordinances than those of the state government. However, in the late 1990s, groups such as the National Rifle Association were able to convince state legislators that local governments should not be able to have their own gun control laws.
    “The state government is generally very permissive in giving cities leeway to legislate a wide variety of issues, so it’s frustrating when laws are taken away from us,” Verveer said. “In the case of gun regulation, this issue is right up there on that list.”
    According to Burnett, in past legislative sessions, 15 states have considered bills in favor of SCCC.
    “Most states adjourned without passing anything, but we look for more legislation on this issue as state legislatures begin to meet again,” Burnett said. “Our efforts are ramping up for this upcoming year.”








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    In re 'belief' as social policy determinant; "I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in poltergeists. When I feel the urge to swear, then I drown my blaspheme in prayer."

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    that article made me want to puke.



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    Brigdh wrote:
    However, there are statutes pertaining to where concealed weapons can or cannot be carried.
    Wrong. There are statues which pertain to where you cannot carry a firearm specifically. The statute he quoted does not prohibit knives, etc...

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    It sickens me that a DA could be that ignorant of the laws of the state, and a reporter so naive as to take him at his word.

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    Rick Finsta wrote:
    It sickens me that a DA could be that ignorant of the laws of the state, and a reporter so naive as to take him at his word.
    I don't see where Verveer demonstrated any ignorance of state law in the story. Perhaps a poor understanding of how to respond to violence, but not of the law.
    A. Gold

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    The state does not giveany(well, nearly so) power to local authorities for the regulation of enumerated rights. His statement about the state being "permissive" about such things is patently false.

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    “The state government is generally very permissive in giving cities leeway to legislate a wide variety of issues, so it’s frustrating when laws are taken away from us,” Verveer said."

    I don't think his statement is false at all. He said nothing about "enumerated rights." Can you think of many other statutes where the state preempts local ordinances?
    A. Gold

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    Generally in 'motor vehicle codes'.

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    I realize he didn't say "enumerated rights," and that's my point. He is characterizing RKBA as just one more item of business normally handled on the local level. It isn't; the municipality is unable to restrict the enumerated rights of citizens any more than the state is. Thanks for asking for clarification, I wasn't really trying to makea point with my first comment, though the thought process had brought me to that.

    Some other examples, though, which I feel make the practice less than rare, are things like labor laws, travel, voting, hunting (yeah, I know discharge ordinances are a loophole), sales tax, liquor licensing, professional accredation, etc. I certainly think it's safe to say that the State has a whole lot more to say about how we go about daily life than any municipality therein.

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    Thanks for clarifying what you meant. However I think that just because the state regulates many things it isn't the same as forbidding local municipalities from also regulating them. Some of your latest examples are in fact not particularly good examples. Sales tax? There are city and county sales taxes! Here in Dane County, it's .5%.

    Liquor licenses are issued by the city.

    Municipalities may have their own labor laws also, and many do-- for example, Madison prohibits employment discrimination based on one's appearance and political beliefs and the fact that one is a student. There are no similar provisions under state law.

    Professional accreditation? Well the state regulates that for some professions, but not all. Plumbers and electricians are licensed locally, not by the state.

    Overall, I believe Verveer was correct when he claimed that the state generally gives local governments much leeway-- particularly in the area of ordinances regulating public order and conduct. Don't forget, we still have a patchwork of local ordinances regulating the length of knives one may carry in various municipalities.

    We can disagree with Verveer's opinion, but I don't think the quotation attributed to him shows he's ignorant of state law. Verveer is not only a lawyer and Assistant DA, he's been on the Madison City Council since 1995 and has served as the council president. As such, I would suspect that he has fairly decent grasp of both state and municipal law.
    A. Gold

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    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Liquor license numbers per municipality are limited by state law (a local restaraunt recently had to have Sen. Grothman work to get Saukville another Class C license).

    Many type of tax levies (or at least increases) are limited by state law. An example - the sales tax in Milwaukee County cannot be raised (or could not be initially applied)without state law being changed.

    Local labor laws are generally unconstitutional, as they create problems for companies operating across municipal borders. I've got a 6-pack of Scottish Porter that says Milwaukee's "sick days" mandate loses in court. (I don't have the case law on this one, simply a conversation about it with a reputableattorney. I keep meaning to look into it, but I barely have time for these little conversations...)

    Good mental exercise, shotgun! I like back and forth. I won't retract my initial statement, however, as many, many politicians are lawyers, and that doesn't stop them from being ignorant of, or irresponsible with, laws. Same goes for LEOs. I feel that deference to these people as a form of argument is appeal to false authority. Perhaps I'm a bittoo sensitive when it comes to statements like this one by "authorities," and I'm reading something that isn't there, but either way, his statement was clearly not interpreted by the reporter or the general public on the same level as you and I are here.

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    Rick Finsta wrote:
    Liquor license numbers per municipality are limited by state law (a local restaraunt recently had to have Sen. Grothman work to get Saukville another Class C license).

    Many type of tax levies (or at least increases) are limited by state law. An example - the sales tax in Milwaukee County cannot be raised (or could not be initially applied)without state law being changed.

    Local labor laws are generally unconstitutional, as they create problems for companies operating across municipal borders. I've got a 6-pack of Scottish Porter that says Milwaukee's "sick days" mandate loses in court. (I don't have the case law on this one, simply a conversation about it with a reputableattorney. I keep meaning to look into it, but I barely have time for these little conversations...)

    Good mental exercise, shotgun! I like back and forth. I won't retract my initial statement, however, as many, many politicians are lawyers, and that doesn't stop them from being ignorant of, or irresponsible with, laws. Same goes for LEOs. I feel that deference to these people as a form of argument is appeal to false authority. Perhaps I'm a bittoo sensitive when it comes to statements like this one by "authorities," and I'm reading something that isn't there, but either way, his statement was clearly not interpreted by the reporter or the general public on the same level as you and I are here.
    I don't know if I would characterize deference to the statement of lawyer as "an appeal to false authority." I believe they're supposed to BE the authorities. I did not say, nor did Verveer, that the state allows free reign to municipalities regarding everything, but they do have generally much more leeway. Again, find something in state law that is comparable to the firearms preemption it the way it restricts municipalities.

    I don't know what you consider to be a "labor law" but there are many municipalities in this state that have labor laws regarding wages and employment and those laws are perfectly constitutional. In fact, in some areas they are allowed to be stricter than state law, and they are in fact stricter than state law.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Pointman wrote:
    Meanwhile, the exchange of non-government approved ideas by regular citizens is allowed only in one's own home, and under very specific circumstances as ruled by the Wisconsin Supreme Court.
    The scary part is that we are already heading down this path with free speech zones and the like. The recently passed HR1955 bill in the US house of reps. basically gives the federal government the right to do just that.

    Many parts of what you wrote already happen at the University. Try not being told to shut up in a Bio Ethics class if you believe that Abortion, Euthanasia, etc. are evils in society.


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    HR 1955 Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007
    1. ^ Bill of Rights Defense Committee (accessed on Jan 20, 2008):
      "Thought Crime" Bill is D.O.A.
      The Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act (H.R. 1955) is reported to be Dead On Arrival in the U.S. Senate, killed by a wildfire of grassroots opposition that blazed a trail of Internet petitions and calls to Congress. According to a well-hidden paragraph in CQ Politics, the bill "died a quiet death in the Senate" on December 14. The sudden death of the Senate version, S 1959, has received no other media coverage, so the grassroots victory in stopping the bill has gone nearly unreported. Updates will be posted on the BORDC legislation page.
      The Bill of Rights Defense Committee has since corrected its coverage, and now reports, "'Thought Crime' Bill Still Threatens in Senate" (BORDC home page accessed Jan. 29, 2008).
      The CQ Politics report was not corrected:
      Radical: Legislation to create a “National Commission on the Prevention of Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism” (HR 1955) died a quiet death in the Senate last week. Much maligned here as a $22 million boondoggle, the idea to create yet another government entity to study an overblown threat already addressed by the $44 billion-a-year U.S. intelligence community, not to mention countless think tanks and authors, was the brainchild of Rep. Jane Harman, D-Calif. A few years ago local police and the FBI broke up a prison-based plot to bomb synagogues in the name of jihad in her district. Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, introduced a companion measure, but it was doomed by a lack of specificity on who the commission’s targets were, among other problems.
      ("Backchannel Chatter" section of CQ Politics "Who can you believe in the torture wars?", dated Dec. 14, 2007, accessed Jan. 29, 2008)
      ^ A Homeland Security Committee staffer at the office of its chairman, Sen. Joe Lieberman, indicated that S.1959 is still in committee and is expected to remain there for some time. (Phone call, Jan. 22, 2008) Sen. Susan Collins' office also confirmed that S. 1959 is in the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. (Phone call, Jan. 29, 2008)

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    Nice to know that this bill is essentially dead. The more important information that people do not talk about was that the vote on HR1955 in the house was 404-6. 404 representatives voted for this piece of garbage.

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    At least we have a dependable 911 system there...


    I am so fricken glad I moved out of Madison, I don't say that enough
    I aim to misbehave

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    opusd2 wrote:
    At least we have a dependable 911 system there...


    I am so fricken glad I moved out of Madison, I don't say that enough
    Sometimes one doesn't need a dependable 911 system if one has a dependable 1911 system. (or equivalent)
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    Shotgun wrote:
    opusd2 wrote:
    At least we have a dependable 911 system there...


    I am so fricken glad I moved out of Madison, I don't say that enough
    Sometimes one doesn't need a dependable 911 system if one has a dependable 1911 system. (or equivalent)

    I completely agree. It may have changed the outcome for a few people who tried relying on 911 operators who were either getting manicures at the time or were hard of hearing. I'm sure a gunshot into the mouthpiece of the phone may have been a wake up for that obviously incompetant phone jockey that someone or some organization in Madison is trying hard to cover up.
    I aim to misbehave

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