Firearms at church

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http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=5d0be511-e4ff-4e88-a643-ad76797fbb00

The incident that happened in Utah with David Ragsdale shooting his wife in the church parking lot hit close to home for me as I knew the people that were involved. Not that we were friends, but I knew them. I often wonder if it could have been stopped by someone that was carrying.

I am wondering how many people oc or cc at church. In the past, I was always against this practice as I respect church as a place of sanctuary and somehow found a problem carrying at church. I have been forced to rethink this and I have spent a good deal of time pondering this question.

I would be interested to hear opinions.

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So CC Your firearm and don't say anything And when the poop hits the fan bam instant hero

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Brimstone wrote:

I am wondering how many people oc or cc at church.

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Well, hopefully nobody carries openly in (LDS) church. If they did, I would expect a call to the police.

Assuming the LDS church has done their part, and notified the BCI of their intent to prohibit firearms, then carrying a firearm into an LDS house of worship would result in an infraction. No other "houses of worship" have given notice that firearms are prohibited.

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_053000.htm

76-10-530. Trespass with a firearm in a house of worship or private residence -- Notice -- Penalty.
(1) A person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, after notice has been given as provided in Subsection (2) that firearms are prohibited, may not knowingly and intentionally:
(a) transport a firearm into:
(i) a house of worship; or
(ii) a private residence; or
(b) while in possession of a firearm, enter or remain in:
(i) a house of worship; or
(ii) a private residence.
(2) Notice that firearms are prohibited may be given by:
(a) personal communication to the actor by:
(i) the church or organization operating the house of worship;
(ii) the owner, lessee, or person with lawful right of possession of the private residence; or
(iii) a person with authority to act for the person or entity in Subsections (2)(a)(i) and (ii);
(b) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of persons entering the house of worship or private residence;
(c) announcement, by a person with authority to act for the church or organization operating the house of worship, in a regular congregational meeting in the house of worship;
(d) publication in a bulletin, newsletter, worship program, or similar document generally circulated or available to the members of the congregation regularly meeting in the house of worship; or
(e) publication in a newspaper of general circulation in the county in which the house of worship is located or the church or organization operating the house of worship has its principal office in this state.
(3) A church or organization operating a house of worship and giving notice that firearms are prohibited may:
(a) revoke the notice, with or without supersedure, by giving further notice in any manner provided in Subsection (2); and
(b) provide or allow exceptions to the prohibition as the church or organization considers advisable.
(4) (a) (i) Within 30 days of giving or revoking any notice pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e), a church or organization operating a house of worship shall notify the division on a form and in a manner as the division shall prescribe.
(ii) The division shall post on its website a list of the churches and organizations operating houses of worship who have given notice under Subsection (4)(a)(i).
(b) Any notice given pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e) shall remain in effect until revoked or for a period of one year from the date the notice was originally given, whichever occurs first.
(5) Nothing in this section permits an owner who has granted the lawful right of possession to a renter or lessee to restrict the renter or lessee from lawfully possessing a firearm in the residence.
(6) A violation of this section is an infraction.

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The only ones that obey the signs and laws are the law abiding. If there was a sign that said firearms were illegal do you think that the shooting would not have happened? Instead of creating gun free zones the law makers have created free crime zones.

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JUMPMASTER wrote:

The only ones that obey the signs and laws are the law abiding. If there was a sign that said firearms were illegal do you think that the shooting would not have happened? Instead of creating gun free zones the law makers have created free crime zones.

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Exactly...By making and posting "signs" saying guns are prohibited, they are basically telling the would be perps, that "hey, nobody is allowed to carry here, open or concealed, so do what you will..." Morons. I understand people are going to commit crimes regardless, but, damn people, don't advertise your ignorance.

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I carry at my church, however it is not an LDS church and not in UT.

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Brimstone wrote:

http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=5d0be511-e4ff-4e88-a643-ad76797fbb00

The incident that happened in Utah with David Ragsdale shooting his wife in the church parking lot hit close to home for me as I knew the people that were involved. Not that we were friends, but I knew them. I often wonder if it could have been stopped by someone that was carrying.

I am wondering how many people oc or cc at church. In the past, I was always against this practice as I respect church as a place of sanctuary and somehow found a problem carrying at church. I have been forced to rethink this and I have spent a good deal of time pondering this question.

I would be interested to hear opinions.

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There has been a tradition for hundreds of years that a church is a place of sanctuary. I'm not sure how strong or how well respected it ever wasin actual practice, but events of the last few years show that the idea is breaking down fast. So far, I have not carried in church, but like you, I have been thinking about the issue. I don't believe that I would ever OC in a church unless I were a LEO in uniformor unlesssomething very dramatic or unusual happened.

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I carry at church. eff em.

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Yeah! I can see the look on the bad guy's face now. Picture it... the bad guy comes into a church to shoot it up because of the proposition 8 controversy. Little does he know that a guy in the pew just a few feet away is packing a 45. The guy yells out some foul language and comments and lowers their weapon to start firing on the seemingly helpless and unarmed congregation, when all of a sudden, he hears a popping sound and feels himself being thrown off of his feet. He lies dying in a pool of blood as the guy who was packing bears down on him to secure his weapon and insure that the threat has been terminated.

The twisted sad part of this scenario is the fact that the person packing the gun would be charged with an infraction for violating the statutes for carrying in a place of worship registered with BCI. Even though this person would be a hero, there is a chance that those he saved would turn on him because of the jacked up mentality among some ignorant people who happen to be religious zealots.

Kevin

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LovesHisXD45 wrote:

Yeah! I can see the look on the bad guy's face now. Picture it... the bad guy comes into a church to shoot it up because of the proposition 8 controversy. Little does he know that a guy in the pew just a few feet away is packing a 45.....

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Ok - heres a dumb Q. is the guy in your scenario, LovesHisXD, going to be now prosecuted, AFTER having successfully: A) Saved countless lives that day, and B)Proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was breaking the law?

I mean, I KNOW how i feel, but coming from a 'law' perspective??

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SGT Jensen wrote:

Assuming the LDS church has done their part, and notified the BCI of their intent to prohibit firearms, then carrying a firearm into an LDS house of worship would result in an infraction. No other "houses of worship" have given notice that firearms are prohibited.

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_053000.htm

76-10-530. Trespass with a firearm in a house of worship or private residence -- Notice -- Penalty.
(1) A person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, after notice has been given as provided in Subsection (2) that firearms are prohibited, may not knowingly and intentionally:
(a) transport a firearm into:
(i) a house of worship; or
(ii) a private residence; or
(b) while in possession of a firearm, enter or remain in:
(i) a house of worship; or
(ii) a private residence.
(2) Notice that firearms are prohibited may be given by:
(a) personal communication to the actor by:
(i) the church or organization operating the house of worship;
(ii) the owner, lessee, or person with lawful right of possession of the private residence; or
(iii) a person with authority to act for the person or entity in Subsections (2)(a)(i) and (ii);
(b) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of persons entering the house of worship or private residence;
(c) announcement, by a person with authority to act for the church or organization operating the house of worship, in a regular congregational meeting in the house of worship;
(d) publication in a bulletin, newsletter, worship program, or similar document generally circulated or available to the members of the congregation regularly meeting in the house of worship; or
(e) publication in a newspaper of general circulation in the county in which the house of worship is located or the church or organization operating the house of worship has its principal office in this state.
(3) A church or organization operating a house of worship and giving notice that firearms are prohibited may:
(a) revoke the notice, with or without supersedure, by giving further notice in any manner provided in Subsection (2); and
(b) provide or allow exceptions to the prohibition as the church or organization considers advisable.
(4) (a) (i) Within 30 days of giving or revoking any notice pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e), a church or organization operating a house of worship shall notify the division on a form and in a manner as the division shall prescribe.
(ii) The division shall post on its website a list of the churches and organizations operating houses of worship who have given notice under Subsection (4)(a)(i).
(b) Any notice given pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e) shall remain in effect until revoked or for a period of one year from the date the notice was originally given, whichever occurs first.
(5) Nothing in this section permits an owner who has granted the lawful right of possession to a renter or lessee to restrict the renter or lessee from lawfully possessing a firearm in the residence.
(6) A violation of this section is an infraction.

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You will note that a church is required to notify BCI of their intent to ban guns ONLY if they "give notice" of such by one time events like posting in a news paper or an announcement over the pulpit (options "c, d, and e").

If a church gives notice using options a or b (personal communication to the gun carrier or with signs likely to come to the attention of persons entering the church), then BCI need not be notified.

So while the LDS Church is currently the only church in Utah where guns are banned and there is no need for signage to that effect nor personal communication, there may well be other churches that have posted signs, or that would directly communicate a ban on guns were the situation to arrise (such as seeing someone OCing).

I bring this up only so there is no misunderstanding of the legal rights churches have in terms of options to ban guns from their property in Utah. If a minister or other person with proper authority directly tells you your gun is not welcome, they have invoked the gun ban even if the guy next to you in the pew is OCing an ICBM. See 3 a and 3 b. A church does NOT have to treat all gun owners equally and can discriminate in this regard on ANY (or no) basis they see fit.

Simply put, I encourage all to obey the laws of land AND to respect the wishes of churches and private home owners when it comes to whether guns are welcome or not and in what manner they might be welcome. That might mean going unarmed, or it might mean avoiding locations where you gun is not welcome.

ANY other discussion is grossly out of place and potentially problematic on a publicly readable OPEN carry comment board.

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Brimstone wrote:

http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=5d0be511-e4ff-4e88-a643-ad76797fbb00

The incident that happened in Utah with David Ragsdale shooting his wife in the church parking lot hit close to home for me as I knew the people that were involved. Not that we were friends, but I knew them. I often wonder if it could have been stopped by someone that was carrying.

I am wondering how many people oc or cc at church. In the past, I was always against this practice as I respect church as a place of sanctuary and somehow found a problem carrying at church. I have been forced to rethink this and I have spent a good deal of time pondering this question.

I would be interested to hear opinions.

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Brimstone,

I understand the concern and the desire for greater understanding. But in Utah it is an infraction, a violation of the law, for any non-LEO to carry a gun into any church or private residence that gives proper notice (via any one of several different methods) that guns are not welcome. See 76-10-530 which Sgt. Jensen has kindly posted for all of us in this thread.

The LDS Church has given such notice relative to ALL of its houses of worship in the State. That includes regular Ward Buildings, Stake Centers, Tabernacles, Temples, and most likely the Conference Center.

A couple of other churches have posted signs that bear equal legal weight. And I have no doubt that fair number of other churches would invoke their legal right to ban guns via personal communication if they knew such guns were present (IE, openly carried).

With that all said, simply put, I encourage all to obey the laws of land AND to respect the wishes of churches and private home owners when it comes to whether guns are welcome or not and in what manner they might be welcome. That might mean going unarmed, or it might mean avoiding locations where you gun is not welcome.

ANY other discussion is grossly out of place and potentially problematic on a publicly readable OPEN carry comment board.

Now, if you happen to attend a church that has not banned guns, then more power to you. If you attend a church outside Utah, this discussion is probably better suited to a page other than the Utah page. If you legally conceal carry to church that discussion might better suited to a CONCEALED firearm forumn.

But if you attend a church that has banned guns you are legally limited to leaving your gun in your car in the parking lot. (You will note that ONLY the interior of the actual house of worship is off limits, parking lots are legal, though I doubt churches banning guns would be thrilled to know you were leaving guns in your car in the parking lot.) You might also consider the possession of non-firearm self defense weapons (76-10-530 covers ONLY firearms) such as pepper spray, stun guns, and the like.

Again, I am very understanding of the personal conflict people may feel on this. But especially on an OPEN, publicly accessible comment board let us not write anything to make anyone think that Utah's gun owners are willing to or routinely disregarding the church gun ban. We would certainly hate to see anyone pushing for heavier penalties that would be grossly inappropriate to the accidental, inadvertent, and unintended possession of a gun in a church. Some people spend a LOT of time coming and going from church buildings and it would be a shame to see heavier penalty imposed because someone momentarily forgot to remove a pocket gun before running into a church building on some quick, weekday errand.

Obey the law. Work to change it if you must. But obey the law. THAT is the ONLY course to be properly discussed or encouraged.

And if someone makes a deeply personal decision to peacefully and with the best of designs do the contrary, I do NOT want to know about it. I certainly do NOT want any legal obligation to report it, or to possible be any part of a conspiracy to violate the laws.

Charles

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This thread was started based on the Ragsdale case. As I understand the scenario, unless you were standing right next to Sister Ragsdale, you wouldn't have been able to do anything, armed or not. People were crossing the parking lot heading into the meetinghouse as normal. David Ragsdale pulled in and parked, walked up to her and shot her in a matter of seconds. No one saw it coming, nobody had the opportunity to intervene before it was too late. The guy was a scumbag and a psycho. He just accepted a plea bargain, by the way, that will keep him in prison for the rest of his life, but he won't be executed.

So in that specific case, carrying at church wouldn't have helped, unfortunately. For the general case... well, nobody knows.

I am a big, big supporter of 2A, and I carry every day. But for me, the issue of carrying in a house of worship comes down to one of respect. The LDS Church has done one half of the job of making guns illegal in their buildings. The missing piece is publishing it in the bulletin or making an announcement over the pulpit. They haven't done that yet, so technically, you can carry in a house of worship.

However, even though I have the right to freely practice my religion, I would not perform an LDS Sacrament service in a Muslim mosque, Jewish synagogue, or Catholic chapel. Out of respect. I have the right to free speech and press, but handing out LDS proselyting pamphlets at another faith's place of worship would be disrespectful. In both cases, it would cast the group I associate with in a bad light. On the same principle, even though I have the right to carry a firearm in an LDS chapel, I don't do so because I have respect for the sanctuary that a house of worship represents.

Out in every day life, I trust my own safety in my own hands first and so I carry a gun. But in a chapel, I've got to have a little more faith that there's a Higher Power involved there. He knows I can legally carry, He knows I'm pretty good with it, He knows whether or not I'd hesitate to use it in the moment of truth. He and I talk often in prayer, and if He wanted my help protecting His house one day, I hope that my heart would be open enough to catch that impression, and I'd strap on my holster that day.

Out in the world, unless I have some reason to believe my safety is guaranteed by someone more capable, I'll carry a gun. At Church, unless I have reason to believe the safety of myself, my family, and my friends is threatened, I'll respectfully leave my weapon at home.

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Matai wrote:

This thread was started based on the Ragsdale case. As I understand the scenario, unless you were standing right next to Sister Ragsdale, you wouldn't have been able to do anything, armed or not. People were crossing the parking lot heading into the meetinghouse as normal. David Ragsdale pulled in and parked, walked up to her and shot her in a matter of seconds. No one saw it coming, nobody had the opportunity to intervene before it was too late. The guy was a scumbag and a psycho. He just accepted a plea bargain, by the way, that will keep him in prison for the rest of his life, but he won't be executed.

So in that specific case, carrying at church wouldn't have helped, unfortunately. For the general case... well, nobody knows.

I am a big, big supporter of 2A, and I carry every day. But for me, the issue of carrying in a house of worship comes down to one of respect. The LDS Church has done one half of the job of making guns illegal in their buildings. The missing piece is publishing it in the bulletin or making an announcement over the pulpit. They haven't done that yet, so technically, you can carry in a house of worship.

However, even though I have the right to freely practice my religion, I would not perform an LDS Sacrament service in a Muslim mosque, Jewish synagogue, or Catholic chapel. Out of respect. I have the right to free speech and press, but handing out LDS proselyting pamphlets at another faith's place of worship would be disrespectful. In both cases, it would cast the group I associate with in a bad light. On the same principle, even though I have the right to carry a firearm in an LDS chapel, I don't do so because I have respect for the sanctuary that a house of worship represents.

Out in every day life, I trust my own safety in my own hands first and so I carry a gun. But in a chapel, I've got to have a little more faith that there's a Higher Power involved there. He knows I can legally carry, He knows I'm pretty good with it, He knows whether or not I'd hesitate to use it in the moment of truth. He and I talk often in prayer, and if He wanted my help protecting His house one day, I hope that my heart would be open enough to catch that impression, and I'd strap on my holster that day.

Out in the world, unless I have some reason to believe my safety is guaranteed by someone more capable, I'll carry a gun. At Church, unless I have reason to believe the safety of myself, my family, and my friends is threatened, I'll respectfully leave my weapon at home.

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Good point about the Ragsdale case. I also see your logic and appreciate and respect your view on the topic. I guess I'm turning into a pessimist because I have kinda lost a bit of my faith in a lot of things this year. I no longer "trust" the higher power to so called "watch out for me" when it comes to personal protection. I don't believe in that mumbo jumbo about "If it's my time, then it's my time to go". There are so many contradicting statements out there. The one that contradicts the above statement is the one that says, "God helps those who help themselves".

If I can carry a concealed sidearm into a place of worship and keep the respect and mental dicipline required for proper worship, then it is no different than carrying a leatherman on your keychain. It has scissors, a knife, a screw driver, file and a few other nicities that just happen to be "tools" that I carry around in case I need them. I fail to see the difference in the hand gun vs the knife, or any other tool, that I happen to carry on my person at any given time.

I am so sick and tired of the public demonization of the hand gun...absolutely disgusted! If some psycho takes out a church, or some other "gun free zone", I would be compelled to yell at the top of my lungs. "I told you so!", and rub it in the faces of the sheeple and pathetic gun control lobby how just 1 person could have stopped the incident or prevented casualties had they been armed.

It's interesting how, back in Biblical times, the temple was proctected by armed guards. All of the books, both old and new, are riddled with references to protecting and arming yourself and protecting your family. They talk about how it is a responsibility and a duty to do so. I guess it just doesn't apply in church, aye? Heaven forbid your should "do your duty" at church because it is a place of "sanctuary". Bla bla bla . I've heard enough, and it makes me sick.

Kevin

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I like to look at it this way:

Carrying at an LDS church is just as ILLEGAL as going 66 MPH down I-15.

I have had a bishop tell me that he carries and expects those with CFPs to do the same. The "ban" is simply a feel good PR move, not doctrine.

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Brimstone wrote:

http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=5d0be511-e4ff-4e88-a643-ad76797fbb00

The incident that happened in Utah with David Ragsdale shooting his wife in the church parking lot hit close to home for me as I knew the people that were involved. Not that we were friends, but I knew them. I often wonder if it could have been stopped by someone that was carrying.

I am wondering how many people oc or cc at church. In the past, I was always against this practice as I respect church as a place of sanctuary and somehow found a problem carrying at church. I have been forced to rethink this and I have spent a good deal of time pondering this question.

I would be interested to hear opinions.

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I doubt anyone in the area that was armedregarding the RAGSDALE incident would have had any affect on the outcome.

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Matai wrote:

The LDS Church has done one half of the job of making guns illegal in their buildings. The missing piece is publishing it in the bulletin or making an announcement over the pulpit. They haven't done that yet, so technically, you can carry in a house of worship. "

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I believe the LDS Church did provide public noticed via the newspaper and has FULLY complied wit the law. The public notice is a ONE time requirement, hence the requirement to also keep BCI notified so the information can be listed on the BCI website.

Furthermore, the various letters sent to congregations and printed in the media from the LDS Church making clear its position could probably also qualify as sufficient notice even if a formal "public notice" type of notice were never printed in the DesNews or Salt Lake Tribune.

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ScottyT wrote:

I like to look at it this way:

Carrying at an LDS church is just as ILLEGAL as going 66 MPH down I-15.

I have had a bishop tell me that he carries and expects those with CFPs to do the same. The "ban" is simply a feel good PR move, not doctrine.

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I hate to debate this too much, but I will note that while banning guns is not doctrine, obeying the law is according to the 13th Article of Faith.

And while we are all guilty of various minor infractions such as speeding from time to time, I do not think it appropriate to publicly encourage anyone to violate a law that is clearly constitutional.

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I don't belong to the LDS cult, so I have obviously never received a notice letter about their policy. I will be in SLC next week to attend a wedding at a "Stake House" I think they call it. If there is no sign at the door, how is one like me supposed to know their policy? I usually CC to weddings anyway, and I am sure I will to this one also, but if they really don't want them in their buildings they should post it at the door.

Just my 2¢

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Cremator75 wrote:

I don't belong to the LDS cult, so I have obviously never received a notice letter about their policy. I will be in SLC next week to attend a wedding at a "Stake House" I think they call it. If there is no sign at the door, how is one like me supposed to know their policy? I usually CC to weddings anyway, and I am sure I will to this one also, but if they really don't want them in their buildings they should post it at the door.

Just my 2¢

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First of all, calling the LDS Church a "cult" is highly offensive and completely unnecessary.

Secondly, while the State law may be far from perfect in this regard, it is quite clear and fairly simple. Go to http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/CFchurch.html and see the list of churches that have banned guns in their buildings but prefer NOT to post signs to that effect on their buildings.

Charles