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Thread: Is it legal to detain and ask for a permit.

  1. #1
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    The discussion has come up about being able to carry in certain places and should GFZ signs being put up. In SC there is no OC and is some states such as TN OC or CC requires a permit so this question is not completely restricted to SC. If you are in a place that does not have GFZ signs and it is perfectly legal to carry can you be stopped and required to show your permit. For instance you are walking down the mall, a LEO notices the bulge in your pants and thinks that you are carrying can he stop and ask you if it is a gun and if you have a permit to CC.

    This question has come up that I have proposed that we allow CC with a permit here. My argument is that anyone carryingshould have a permit and if they do not then they will be breaking the law whether or not we put up the signs. The signs will only keep those without a permit from carrying. The question was asked if wenotice someone carrying by whatever way we happen to do it how do we know they have a permit or not. Can we stop them and require them to show it. If this would be an illegal stop then the signs will go up for everyone to be denied CC. The same would apply in states such as TN where OC is allowed with a permit. If a LEO sees someone OC can he stop and aks them to show the permit?

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    PT111 wrote:
    The discussion has come up about being able to carry in certain places and should GFZ signs being put up. In SC there is no OC and is some states such as TN OC or CC requires a permit so this question is not completely restricted to SC. If you are in a place that does not have GFZ signs and it is perfectly legal to carry can you be stopped and required to show your permit. For instance you are walking down the mall, a LEO notices the bulge in your pants and thinks that you are carrying can he stop and ask you if it is a gun and if you have a permit to CC.

    This question has come up that I have proposed that we allow CC with a permit here[my emphasis, DH]. My argument is that anyone carryingshould have a permit and if they do not then they will be breaking the law whether or not we put up the signs. The signs will only keep those without a permit from carrying. The question was asked if wenotice someone carrying by whatever way we happen to do it how do we know they have a permit or not. Can we stop them and require them to show it. If this would be an illegal stop then the signs will go up for everyone to be denied CC. The same would apply in states such as TN where OC is allowed with a permit. If a LEO sees someone OC can he stop and aks them to show the permit?
    Permitted Concealed Weapons carry is legal in SC. Rights cannot be 'permitted'.

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    PT111,

    I don't know SC law, but here in TN it is specified that an officer may ask to see your permit and may detain you for the length of time it takes to call in a check on your permit to ensure that it is valid if he sees you armed. In TN a permit is required to OC or to CC, and this is in accordance with the state Constitution. The conflict between the state constitution and the federal constitution in this regard has never been tested.

    Otherwise, I'm not completely clear on what you are asking.

    Regards,

    Pol

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    Most states have some sort of codification of what has become known as a "Terry stop." (I believe you can find a discussion of this elsewhere on the board.) Here in Louisiana, it is CCrP 215.1 (Code of Criminal Procedure), SC may have something similar.

    Essentially a LEO must reasonably believe you have committed, or are in the midst of committing, a crime.A bulge in you pants would not generally satisfy that requirement - it might simply mean you're happy to see the LEO.

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    Pol Mordreth wrote:
    PT111,

    I don't know SC law, but here in TN it is specified that an officer may ask to see your permit and may detain you for the length of time it takes to call in a check on your permit to ensure that it is valid if he sees you armed. In TN a permit is required to OC or to CC, and this is in accordance with the state Constitution. The conflict between the state constitution and the federal constitution in this regard has never been tested.

    Otherwise, I'm not completely clear on what you are asking.

    Regards,

    Pol
    I know that the discussion one here is that any stop without reasonable expectation of a crime being committed is illegal such as a check point traffic stop or stopping a person walking down the street OC even with a MWAG call to 911. My question is that if someone is walking down the coridor on the Mall or in a store CC and you suspect that they have a gun, can you stop and ask for their permit without actually having seen the gun. Or in the case of TN a person is just walking down the street OC can you stop and ask for their permit with no reason to believe that may not have one. This is the same as stopping a person driving down the road and asking if they have a drivers license if they are not breaking any other law.


    To shorten it, if I am walking down the street in Gatlinburg OC and not breaking any other law can a LEO stop me and ask for my permit? If so can he stop me while driving and ask for my drivers license?

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    Ahh, I understand now. Yes, the officer in TN can stop you if he sees that you are armed and ask to see your permit and verify that it is valid. Seeing the weapon (or an outline) is his probable cause, since in tennessee it is acrime to go armed. Having a permit is a defense against the charge of intending to go armed. Now, IANAL, but that is the most reasonable reading of both the Terry rule and the TN State code. For reference, Tn Code 39-17-1307 is where it establishes that it is a crime to go armed in TN, and TN Code 39-17-1308is where it shows that having a permit is an affirmative defense to the charge of going armed. I hope this helps.



    Regards,

    Pol


    PS, the thing I really hate about Mitchies legal site is that I can't figure out how to link to the correct subwindow for the code part. I can only link to the TN code top level.

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    I'd normally be the first one to use the driving examples, but I don't think the cases are quite the same.

    Think of it like a young looking person being carded at a bar or casino. They didn't do anything wrong, but it warrents a check to make sure. I absolutely hate over-stepping law enforcement and police state America, but in this case I'd say that as long as the officer is courteous and respectful of your time, I don't see why it's a problem.

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    AWDstylez wrote:
    I'd normally be the first one to use the driving examples, but I don't think the cases are quite the same.

    Think of it like a young looking person being carded at a bar or casino. They didn't do anything wrong, but it warrents a check to make sure. I absolutely hate over-stepping law enforcement and police state America, but in this case I'd say that as long as the officer is courteous and respectful of your time, I don't see why it's a problem.
    In the bar or casino case you are being carded by a private citizen and not LEO. Could a LEO walk in and require everyone to show their proof of age? If you are walking down the street with what looks like a bottle of gin in a paper sack can a LEO stop you and make you prove that you are 21?

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    PT111 wrote:
    In the bar or casino case you are being carded by a private citizen and not LEO. Could a LEO walk in and require everyone to show their proof of age? If you are walking down the street with what looks like a bottle of gin in a paper sack can a LEO stop you and make you prove that you are 21?
    In both cases, yes.A group of uswere carded, not by casino security, and not once, but twice, bystate liquor department agents while gambling.

    When the cops break up a highschool/college party, do they verify the age of everyone there (not even just everyone drinking)? Of course. How do you determine if someone is doing something illegal in that case if you don't ask?

    I don't see it being any different when carrying a gun. I think the thing you're hung up on with the driving example is scope. Everyone drives. If you start picking off random people to stop and check for licenses, you're discriminating and harassing. Hardly anyone carries a gun. Seeing someone with a gun is probably a once-a-day event at best, if not once a week or less. It'snot discriminatory because it's very possible to stop everyone they seecarrying a gun.

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    AWDstylez wrote:
    I'd normally be the first one to use the driving examples, but I don't think the cases are quite the same.

    Think of it like a young looking person being carded at a bar or casino. They didn't do anything wrong, but it warrents a check to make sure. I absolutely hate over-stepping law enforcement and police state America, but in this case I'd say that as long as the officer is courteous and respectful of your time, I don't see why it's a problem.
    Are gambling and drinking fundamental rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights?

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    hsmith wrote:
    AWDstylez wrote:
    I'd normally be the first one to use the driving examples, but I don't think the cases are quite the same.

    Think of it like a young looking person being carded at a bar or casino. They didn't do anything wrong, but it warrents a check to make sure. I absolutely hate over-stepping law enforcement and police state America, but in this case I'd say that as long as the officer is courteous and respectful of your time, I don't see why it's a problem.
    Are gambling and drinking fundamental rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights?
    yes.

    10th amendment. victimless crimes are unconstitutional

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    Driving a car is a privilege where 'bearing arms' is a right. I think that we have this backwards. If they can't stop you simply to check for a drivers license they certainly should NOT be able to stop you simply to check for an 'arms' license! If they have 'probable cause', sure, if you are just walking down the street, then no, they should NOT be able to stop you and ask for a license, but then again, a license should not be required in the first place!

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    hsmith wrote:
    AWDstylez wrote:
    I'd normally be the first one to use the driving examples, but I don't think the cases are quite the same.

    Think of it like a young looking person being carded at a bar or casino. They didn't do anything wrong, but it warrents a check to make sure. I absolutely hate over-stepping law enforcement and police state America, but in this case I'd say that as long as the officer is courteous and respectful of your time, I don't see why it's a problem.
    Are gambling and drinking fundamental rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights?


    Rights are not limited to those guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. If it is not illegal, I have a right to do it.

    "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

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