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Thread: Dishonest LEO strikes again!

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    You need to be polite, but firm. Make it clear that you know she is either lying, or misinformed. You know the law. If she wished to ask you to leave, that is a separate issue. Do not let the uninformed write the law.

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    conservative1985 wrote:
    At approx. 1810 hrs. on 11/26while purchasing an alcoholic beverage at a BP on the corner of Linden& Grand Blanc rd. the cashier motioned me away from the line, asked me if that was a gun on my side. I replied yes. She said "even tho you might have ccw, (it was not concealed)that a cop was behind you last night (11-25-08)& saw you purchase a can of beer" she continued by saying that he stated that it was illegal to sell alcohol to some one with a gun, and he also told her that she could have gone to jail. She stated that she asked her manager and the manager also agreed and said it was there policy not to sell to people with guns.

    I politely replied no problem I will be right back. I went to my truck unloaded my fire arm, placed it in a case, shut the trk off, & locked the door. I went in grabbed my alcoholic beverage went to the counter, & I told her I had no problem with her but if it was true what the cop saidwhy did he not stop me...she replied "hewas off duty" (I know what your allthinking about that but lets continue)I told her that there is no such law but that if she or her manager do not want to sell to us (oc'ers and cpl'ers) that that was their right, but that they should post a sign(by law) I told her if I was hiding she would have never known she was selling to a person with a gun. I assured her that I had no problem with her, and I left. I believe she her self and herself alone had a problem & just made up the story to lend leverage to her story.Tho I would not put it past a leo to tell some poor uneducated sap a story like that...
    My 2 cents Bad Hat fields and McCoys story No proof of LEO involvement Your actions are to be commended. Nice job.

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    Thank you Taxwhat

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    NavyLT wrote:
    I think you are jumping to conclusions here when you state dishonest LEO.* Dishonest implies an attempt to obtain something from illegal methods.* I think he was probably honest.* And I think he was probably honestly ignorant and had an arrogance problem associated with his ignorance.

    And yes, good job attempting to educate the victim's of his ignorance.
    Ignorance of the law is no excuse for a citizen. Why should it be for a man whose vocation is defined by knowledge of the law? The LEO in question is lucky to be referred to as "dishonest" by the OP. I will refer to any LEO who makes a misstatement of fact regarding the law as a "liar", regardless of intent.

    I can only assume that LEOs follow the Golden Rule, as I do. What stumps me is why they want to be treated in such a manner.

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    No, I don't think you did get my point. You should maybe reread my post.

    If you want me to directly state what I think: LEOs need to know the law, or not speak at all. A LEO is, for all intents and purposes, lying when he misstates the law, whether out of ignorance or malice.

    Those of us who are not professional lawyers, on the complete contrary, shouldn't be liable for ignorant commission of mala prohibita offenses. Without mens rea, without even an accidental victim, there can be no crime.

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    You did a good job handling the situation.

    I would have put the alcohol back and let the cashier know I would not be back, but that's just me, it's a personal choice to be made. Good work.

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    NavyLT wrote:
    I think you are jumping to conclusions here when you state dishonest LEO. Dishonest implies an attempt to obtain something from illegal methods. I think he was probably honest. And I think he was probably honestly ignorant and had an arrogance problem associated with his ignorance.

    And yes, good job attempting to educate the victim's of his ignorance.
    I understand what NavyLT is trying to say.

    I disagree, however.

    The cop was dishonest; but not necessarily in the way NavyLT is taking the OP.

    The dishonesty, if in fact there is no law against it,is more fundamental. And easily overlooked.

    Basically, if there is no law against it, then the officer cannot be ignorant or mistaken. He can't possibly have read a law against it if there is no law. Thus there is nothing to be mistaken about. Nothing tobe ignorant about.

    So what was he doing giving out law unless he could clearly say to himself, "I have read this law; I know for a fact it is illegal"?

    Don't fall for the "honest mistake" or fall into giving an LEO a pass on this sort of thing. Unless he can clearly say to himself with certainty that he knows its illegal he has no business detaining an OCer or giving out false law. He needs to be calling a magistrate or consult the Code before taking action.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Thanks for laying out this rationale. You make our position nearly impossible to refute.

    That's basically what I was getting at in a more roundabout fashion: as a Law Enforcement Officer his job is to enforce the law; he cannot apply the law until he knows what the law is, and as a corollary to this, if he doesn't know the law, he has nothing to enforce and thus by his job description has nothing to contribute. Thus, by opining on laws he does not know verbatim, he is overstepping his authority while implicitly making an appeal to it, and ultimately lying.

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    Citizen wrote:
    NavyLT wrote:
    I think you are jumping to conclusions here when you state dishonest LEO. Dishonest implies an attempt to obtain something from illegal methods. I think he was probably honest. And I think he was probably honestly ignorant and had an arrogance problem associated with his ignorance.

    And yes, good job attempting to educate the victim's of his ignorance.
    I understand what NavyLT is trying to say.

    I disagree, however.

    The cop was dishonest; but not necessarily in the way NavyLT is taking the OP.

    The dishonesty, if in fact there is no law against it,is more fundamental. And easily overlooked.

    Basically, if there is no law against it, then the officer cannot be ignorant or mistaken. He can't possibly have read a law against it if there is no law. Thus there is nothing to be mistaken about. Nothing tobe ignorant about.

    So what was he doing giving out law unless he could clearly say to himself, "I have read this law; I know for a fact it is illegal"?

    Don't fall for the "honest mistake" or fall into giving an LEO a pass on this sort of thing. Unless he can clearly say to himself with certainty that he knows its illegal he has no business detaining an OCer or giving out false law. He needs to be calling a magistrate or consult the Code before taking action.
    Outstanding!

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    marshaul wrote:
    Thanks for laying out this rationale. You make our position nearly impossible to refute.
    You're welcome.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    warlockmatized wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    NavyLT wrote: Don't fall for the "honest mistake" or fall into giving an LEO a pass on this sort of thing. Unless he can clearly say to himself with certainty that he knows its illegal he has no business detaining an OCer or giving out false law. He needs to be calling a magistrate or consult the Code before taking action.
    Outstanding!

    Thank you.

    Actually, itsa little known fact that once you donate enough to become a Founders Club member, vast wisdom, poise, insight, and humility are conferred upon you. So, make those donations today!!

    PS: Your ability to tell whoppers also grows exponentially.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    warlockmatized wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    NavyLT wrote: Don't fall for the "honest mistake" or fall into giving an LEO a pass on this sort of thing. Unless he can clearly say to himself with certainty that he knows its illegal he has no business detaining an OCer or giving out false law. He needs to be calling a magistrate or consult the Code before taking action.
    Outstanding!

    Thank you.

    Actually, itsa little known fact that once you donate enough to become a Founders Club member, vast wisdom, poise, insight, and humility are conferred upon you. So, make those donations today!!

    PS: Your ability to tell whoppers also grows exponentially.
    My 2 cents Bad Hat fields and McCoys story No proof of LEO involvement .Your PS: my be bs.

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    It sounds to me like we need to organize a winter time event here........lunch at the Valley Restaurant at Linden & Miller Rds & then for those interested, we could caravan a couple of miles south & purchase some alcohol! Anyone game??

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    marshaul wrote:
    Thanks for laying out this rationale. You make our position nearly impossible to refute.

    That's basically what I was getting at in a more roundabout fashion: as a Law Enforcement Officer his job is to enforce the law; he cannot apply the law until he knows what the law is, and as a corollary to this, if he doesn't know the law, he has nothing to enforce and thus by his job description has nothing to contribute. Thus, by opining on laws he does not know verbatim, he is overstepping his authority while implicitly making an appeal to it, and ultimately lying.
    Very well put.

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    What kind of LEO were you?

    conservative1985 wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    NavyLT wrote:
    I think you are jumping to conclusions here when you state dishonest LEO. Dishonest implies an attempt to obtain something from illegal methods. I think he was probably honest. And I think he was probably honestly ignorant and had an arrogance problem associated with his ignorance.

    And yes, good job attempting to educate the victim's of his ignorance.
    Ignorance of the law is no excuse for a citizen. Why should it be for a man whose vocation is defined by knowledge of the law? The LEO in question is lucky to be referred to as "dishonest" by the OP. I will refer to any LEO who makes a misstatement of fact regarding the law as a "liar", regardless of intent.

    I can only assume that LEOs follow the Golden Rule, as I do. What stumps me is why they want to be treated in such a manner.
    First I hate the phrase Ignorance of the law is no excuse! Is the common citizen really expected to know every law the legislature passes? I said it meaning the girl behind the register more than the officer, and what I said was it in so irresponsible if she had doubt she should have gone and researched it thats all. I get your point... I don't know his intent, it could have been an honest mistake on his part. I never said all cops where liars. But if there is a bad apple in your organization it is up to you to route it out, cops should give up this brother hood bull crap this is not a union of shop workers this is an institute of public servants given the honor and responsibility to guard us. any hoo just my opinion

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    MrsRuger45 wrote:
    It sounds to me like we need to organize a winter time event here........lunch at the Valley Restaurant at Linden & Miller Rds & then for those interested, we could caravan a couple of miles south & purchase some alcohol! Anyone game??
    I'm Game
    The use of force is a last resort. One aspect of violence is that it is unpredictable. Although your initial intention may be to use limited force, once you have engaged in violence the consequences are unpredictable. Violence always brings about unexpected results and almost always provokes retaliation.

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    conservative1985 wrote:
    At approx. 1810 hrs. on 11/26while purchasing an alcoholic beverage at a BP on the corner of Linden& Grand Blanc rd. the cashier motioned me away from
    I know that BP. I carried there early this fall buying a pop and I am pretty sure I was open carrying at the time. I was in there for a few minutes because my wife used the restroom and theirsoda fountainmachine screwed up. Then the cashier screwed up and ended up giving us one sodapop for free.

    Now that winter is here, I mostly CC since I almost always have a sweater on to stay warm. But in the spring when the weather is warm again, I'll be OCing again. I'll make a point to stop in there. :-)

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