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Thread: This hurts all of us.( 2 killed at Toys R Us in California)

  1. #1
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    This hurts all of us and some of the peoples comments are out of line. Two men shot each other in the store and evidentially both died. And a comment was made:

    I think the obvious question everyone has is who takes loaded weapons into a Toys "R" Us?" he said. "I doubt it was the casual holiday shopper."

    Bob T

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    I know you are new to the forum, but you need to post links for the story.

    rwt101 wrote:
    This hurts all of us and some of the peoples comments are out of line. Two men shot each other in the store and evidentially both died. And a comment was made:

    I think the obvious question everyone has is who takes loaded weapons into a Toys "R" Us?" he said. "I doubt it was the casual holiday shopper."

    Bob T

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    Sorry about that. I am not sure how to do that but I will try.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4327893

    Bob T

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    Campaign Veteran XD-GEM's Avatar
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    From the above article:
    City spokeswoman Sheila Gilligan said police told her the shooting broke out between "two groups of individuals that have a dispute with each other."
    The article also mentions this is suspected gang-related.

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    It sounds to me like these guys were a couple of gang bangers and not the most responsible individuals. I would be curious as to thier backgrounds and how legal the guns they had were. Plus things like this should never happen in california with all thier gun control(sarcasm)

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    "I think the obvious question everyone has is who takes loaded weapons into a Toys "R" Us?" he said. "I doubt it was the casual holiday shopper."


    Who takes a weapon into a Toys R Us? Why, I do for one.Nothing wrong with that. That was a dumb statement (not from poster).:shock:

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    That's what got me. But a lot of people feel that way. They are not educated on ccw or hcp.

    Bob T

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    rwt101 wrote:
    That's what got me. But a lot of people feel that way. They are not educated on ccw or hcp.

    Bob T
    CCW ? HCP ?



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    Concealed carry and handgun carry permit. Tn is handgun carry permit. Open or concealed.

    Bob T

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    I call BS on this news report. After all, the large-scale gun bans in California were designed specifically to get weapons out of the hands of gang-bangers.

    I mean, we all know any kind of Prohibition the government puts in place reduces crime, right?

    Right?
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  11. #11
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    This was one crazy story, and as previously stated, it doesn't make our cause look good, partially due to the extreme bias in the news reporting so far. I do hope they can sort it all out and will honestly report the facts of this situation.

    There is already at least one very good clue, even in this article, the second guy is described as shooting the first guy as he ran away. Obviously not something a responsible self-defense carrier would be doing.

    TFred

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081129/...store_shooting

    2 men dead after shots fired in SoCal Toys 'R' Us
    By GILLIAN FLACCUS, Associated Press Writer Gillian Flaccus, Associated Press Writer 24minsago
    PALM DESERT, Calif. – Two men pulled guns and shot each other to death in a crowded toy store Friday after the women with them erupted into a bloody brawl, witnesses said. Scared shoppers fled but no one else was hurt.

    The violence erupted on Black Friday, the traditional post-Thanksgiving start of the holiday shopping surge, but authorities indicated the shooting wasn't related to a shopping frenzy.

    Riverside County sheriff's Sgt. Dennis Gutierrez said the fight was not over a toy. He said handguns were found by the men's bodies, but he released little other information. He would not answer a question about whether the shooting was gang-related.

    Witnesses Scott and Joan Barrick said they were checking out of the store when the fight began between two women, each with a man. The women were near the checkout area, but the Barricks did not think the women had purchases.

    One woman suddenly started punching the other woman, who fought back as blood flowed from her nose, Scott Barrick, 41, said.

    The man who was with the woman being punched pulled a gun halfway out of his pocket, then shoved it back in, he said.

    "He pulled his gun right next to me. I turned to look for my wife, and she was already hiding," Barrick said.

    "I was scared," said Joan Barrick, 40. "I didn't want to die today. I really didn't want to die today, and I think that's what we were all thinking."

    The other man pulled a gun and pointed it at the first man but forgot to cock it, Scott Barrick said. The first man tried to run but was blocked by the line of people, then ran back toward the store's electronics section as the other man fired his gun, he said.

    The first man reached a dead-end in electronics, turned around and ran toward an exit, pulling his gun and firing back, he said.

    "He went up to the cash register, he went to put his hand on the thing and he just went phoomp," he said, indicating the man fell.

    He said he did not see what happened to the other man.

    Palm Desert Councilman Jim Ferguson said police told him two men with handguns shot and killed each other.

    "I think the obvious question everyone has is who takes loaded weapons into a Toys "R" Us?" he said. "I doubt it was the casual holiday shopper."

    Ray Turner, 20, said he was two aisles away when two women began shouting and screaming at each other and he had a clear view of the fight until a crowd clustered around them. Both women had children, he said.

    "We thought it was just a fight and then someone yelled, 'He's got a gun. He's got a gun.' You really couldn't see nothing because there was a crowd," Turner said.

    Rafael Gomez, 11, said he and his father had been in the store about 20 minutes before the shooting but were in a nearby Pizza Hut when they saw people pouring out of the store screaming.

    "We just saw them running and crying. I was kind of scared," Rafael said. "We got lucky."
    Toys "R" Us issued a statement expressing outrage over the violence.
    "We are working closely with local law enforcement officials to determine the specific details of what occurred," the statement said. "Our understanding is that this act seems to have been the result of a personal dispute between the individuals involved. Therefore, it would be inaccurate to associate the events of today with Black Friday."
    The Barricks and others remained at the scene long after the shooting because investigators would not allow cars to be taken from the parking lot until a crime-scene reconstruction was completed.
    Palm Desert is a resort town about 120 miles east of Los Angeles.


  12. #12
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    ...and of course the next question is, will Toys-R-Us react to this by posting their stores?

    Obviously, someone who shoots a guy who is running away would notbe likely to obeya sign on the door either.

    TFred



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    As has been said, this doesn't look good for us. As the first story made it sounded, it could've been gang-bangers. The second sounded more like two irresponsible, probably legal, gun owners. Whatever the case, poor judgement was shown from both parties. The way the witnesses made it sound were better off that they killed themselves, just a shame that they're going to be another statistic to take away our carry and ownership rights. I was not a witness and the accounts don't seem to be very clear, but I hope we (and any antis)find out whether or not they were illegally carrying or not, good odds they were with the way it sounds like they were acting.

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    Oops... I logged on to check to see if this was here, and post it if not, and didn't see this post until after I posted in the 'News Alerts' section....

    Weather or not they were legally carrying, it is going to look bad for us. If they WERE legally carrying, it is going to look REALLY bad for us...

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    Well hell how stupid can it get? Just hope they weren't legally carrying and they were gang-bangers. Geez
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    Everyone seems concerned that this hurts our cause. Presuming these two were not legally carrying, I see this as strengthening my position on open and concealed carry. If there can be a gunfight in Toys R Us while shopping for XMas, then it is EXTREMELY CLEAR that I need to carry a gun at toy stores and everywhere else I go.

    If however these two baffoonswere legally carrying then um, well, wtf is there to say but *(^$%&$*($*&%%$%$#

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    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081129/D94OJDJ80.html

    PALM DESERT, Calif. (AP) - The shooting occurred in a crowded toy store on the traditional start of the holiday shopping season, but authorities say it wasn't related to the bargain-hunting frenzy. Instead, two men pulled guns and killed each other after the women with them erupted into a bloody brawl, witnesses said.<p>

    Authorities released few details about the mayhem that broke out at the Toys "R" Us store around 11:30 a.m. Friday, sending scared shoppers fleeing. Riverside County sheriff's Sgt. Dennis Gutierrez said the fight was not over a toy and that handguns were found by the men's bodies. He refused to say whether the shooting was gang-related.<p>
    The victims were identified as Alejandro Moreno, 39, of Desert Hot Springs, and Juan Meza, 28, of Cathedral City. No one else was hurt.<p>
    Witnesses Scott and Joan Barrick said they were checking out of the store when the brawl began between two women, each with a man. The women were near the checkout area, but the Barricks did not think the women had purchases.<p>
    One woman suddenly started punching the other woman, who fought back as blood flowed from her nose, said Scott Barrick, 41. The man who was with the woman being punched pulled a gun halfway out of his pocket, then shoved it back in, he said.<p>
    "He pulled his gun right next to me. I turned to look for my wife, and she was already hiding," Scott Barrick said.<p>
    "I was scared," said Joan Barrick, 40. "I didn't want to die today. I really didn't want to die today, and I think that's what we were all thinking."<p>
    The other man pulled a gun and pointed it at the first man but forgot to cock it, Scott Barrick said. The first man tried to run but was blocked by the line of people, then ran back toward the store's electronics section as the other man fired his gun, he said.<p>
    The first man reached a dead-end in electronics, turned around and ran toward an exit, pulling his gun and firing back, Scott Barrick said.<p>
    "He went up to the cash register, he went to put his hand on the thing and he just went phoomp," he said, indicating the man fell.<p>

    He said he did not see what happened to the other man.<p>
    Palm Desert Councilman Jim Ferguson said police told him two men with handguns shot and killed each other.<p>
    "I think the obvious question everyone has is who takes loaded weapons into a Toys "R" Us?" he said. "I doubt it was the casual holiday shopper."<p>
    Ray Turner, 20, said he was two aisles away when two women began shouting and screaming at each other and he had a clear view of the fight until a crowd clustered around them. Both women had children, he said.<p>
    "We thought it was just a fight and then someone yelled: 'He's got a gun! He's got a gun!' You really couldn't see nothing because there was a crowd," Turner said.<p>
    Rafael Gomez, 11, said he and his father had been in the store about 20 minutes before the shooting but were in a nearby Pizza Hut when they saw people pouring out of the store screaming.<p>
    "We just saw them running and crying. I was kind of scared," Rafael said. "We got lucky."<p>
    Toys "R" Us issued a statement expressing outrage over the violence.<p>
    "We are working closely with local law enforcement officials to determine the specific details of what occurred," the statement said. "Our understanding is that this act seems to have been the result of a personal dispute between the individuals involved. Therefore, it would be inaccurate to associate the events of today with Black Friday."<p>

    Palm Desert is a resort town about 120 miles east of Los Angeles.

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    Regular Member Huck's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    This was one crazy story, and as previously stated, it doesn't make our cause look good, partially due to the extreme bias in the news reporting so far. I do hope they can sort it all out and will honestly report the facts of this situation.
    The anti-gun media, honestly report facts? They've never done so yet on anything involving firearmsso I would'nt count on it.

    III
    "You can teach 'em, but you cant learn 'em."

  19. #19
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    "Who takes loaded weapons into a Toys "R" Us?"

    I do, to protect myself from scum of the earth gun carrying gang bangers, who also carry in Toy R Us...

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081129/D94OJDJ80.html

    PALM DESERT, Calif. (AP) - The shooting occurred in a crowded toy store on the traditional start of the holiday shopping season, but authorities say it wasn't related to the bargain-hunting frenzy. Instead, two men pulled guns and killed each other after the women with them erupted into a bloody brawl, witnesses said.<p>

    Authorities released few details about the mayhem that broke out at the Toys "R" Us store around 11:30 a.m. Friday, sending scared shoppers fleeing. Riverside County sheriff's Sgt. Dennis Gutierrez said the fight was not over a toy and that handguns were found by the men's bodies. He refused to say whether the shooting was gang-related.<p>
    The victims were identified as Alejandro Moreno, 39, of Desert Hot Springs, and Juan Meza, 28, of Cathedral City. No one else was hurt.<p>
    Witnesses Scott and Joan Barrick said they were checking out of the store when the brawl began between two women, each with a man. The women were near the checkout area, but the Barricks did not think the women had purchases.<p>
    One woman suddenly started punching the other woman, who fought back as blood flowed from her nose, said Scott Barrick, 41. The man who was with the woman being punched pulled a gun halfway out of his pocket, then shoved it back in, he said.<p>
    "He pulled his gun right next to me. I turned to look for my wife, and she was already hiding," Scott Barrick said.<p>
    "I was scared," said Joan Barrick, 40. "I didn't want to die today. I really didn't want to die today, and I think that's what we were all thinking."<p>
    The other man pulled a gun and pointed it at the first man but forgot to cock it, Scott Barrick said. The first man tried to run but was blocked by the line of people, then ran back toward the store's electronics section as the other man fired his gun, he said.<p>
    The first man reached a dead-end in electronics, turned around and ran toward an exit, pulling his gun and firing back, Scott Barrick said.<p>
    "He went up to the cash register, he went to put his hand on the thing and he just went phoomp," he said, indicating the man fell.<p>

    He said he did not see what happened to the other man.<p>
    Palm Desert Councilman Jim Ferguson said police told him two men with handguns shot and killed each other.<p>
    "I think the obvious question everyone has is who takes loaded weapons into a Toys "R" Us?" he said. "I doubt it was the casual holiday shopper."<p>
    Ray Turner, 20, said he was two aisles away when two women began shouting and screaming at each other and he had a clear view of the fight until a crowd clustered around them. Both women had children, he said.<p>
    "We thought it was just a fight and then someone yelled: 'He's got a gun! He's got a gun!' You really couldn't see nothing because there was a crowd," Turner said.<p>
    Rafael Gomez, 11, said he and his father had been in the store about 20 minutes before the shooting but were in a nearby Pizza Hut when they saw people pouring out of the store screaming.<p>
    "We just saw them running and crying. I was kind of scared," Rafael said. "We got lucky."<p>
    Toys "R" Us issued a statement expressing outrage over the violence.<p>
    "We are working closely with local law enforcement officials to determine the specific details of what occurred," the statement said. "Our understanding is that this act seems to have been the result of a personal dispute between the individuals involved. Therefore, it would be inaccurate to associate the events of today with Black Friday."<p>

    Palm Desert is a resort town about 120 miles east of Los Angeles.
    I was sure they were hispanics, thanks for proving it. Let's hope they were carrying illegally...they were probably also illegal in the country or at least kids of illegals born in US (who really should be illegal too). No surprise about poor judgement from these kind of folks...

  21. #21
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    You know that the media will fail to mention that there is no way that these people were not breaking the laws of the Peoples Republic of California just being armed. There is a good reason that this did not happen in Florida, or Texas. And by the way, I do carry when I go to Toys R Us, just like every where else that I go.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    David817 wrote:
    there is no way that these people were not breaking the laws of the Peoples Republic of California just being armed.
    Hey, last I checked California has better OC laws than Texas. :P

    Although admittedly not by much. :X

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    You all are clearly missing the problem here. This whole thing started with 2 WOMEN getting into a fight in the store. Clearly the solution is to ban women from Toys-R-Us stores. Can't you all see how dangerous they are when in public?

  24. #24
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    I don't think this event necessarily "hurts us all." It just requires us to step forward and address the prejudices some people are likely to use in manipulating the episode into an anti-gun opportunity.

    As far as I know, two thugs shot each other with illegal guns. If any part of this basic summary is inaccurate, it still does not undermine my position on the right of self-defense. I expect that the situation might not have escalated as it had if more customers and some employees were openly armed.

    I was saddened to hear how this episode played itself out in a children's store. How utterly disdainful.


  25. #25
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Updated news articles are starting to come out about this. According to this one, it was the Southern California version of the Hatfields and McCoys!

    ETA: Also, note the highlighted arrest records near the end of the article.

    TFred

    http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp...;nav=menu191_2

    TOYS 'R' US SHOOTING

    EXCLUSIVE: Feud Shooting was a Murder-Suicide, Victim's Daughter Says

    Posted: Dec 1, 2008 07:51 PM
    By Nathan Baca
    News Channel 3

    There are still more questions than answers about what triggered a deadly shooting at the Toys 'R' Us in Palm Desert on Black Friday.

    Police say Alejandro Moreno, 39, and Juan Meza, 28, both ended up shot dead inside the store. No one is under arrest and investigators aren't looking for any other suspects.

    News Channel 3 talked to Alejandro Moreno's family to get their side of the shooting story.

    Contrary to initial reports, the Moreno family says what happened inside the Toys 'R' Us is a murder-suicide. They say they witnessed Juan Meza shoot himself after killing Alex Moreno over a years-long family feud.

    There were many witnesses and as many different versions of what happened inside the crowded toy store. None was closer than the daughter of Alex Moreno. The Moreno family wanted to conceal the teenager's identity. She was joined by in an exclusive interview Monday with Palm Springs attorney Mark Sullivan.

    Alex Moreno's daughter recalls, "Right away, I saw Juan Meza pull out, partially pull out his weapon. That's when my mother said, 'he got's a gun, he got's a gun!.' After that, I heard around four shots fired from Juan Meza, and right there, I seen my dad drop. That's the worst thing... watch my dad die... to watch your dad die in front of you."

    Moreno's daughter continued, "And then I told Juan Meza because he was alive, looking like 'what did I do?' He was just staring at my dad, like 'I killed him.' And then I tell him, 'you killed my dad, is this what you want? You killed my dad. You killed him, You did it.' And then I go look at my dad and I hear one or two shots, and right there, he killed himself."

    Deputies have surveillance tape from Toys 'R' Us. They will not say if the video confirms the Moreno family's account. The coroner's bureau did the autopsies of the two men Monday.

    Moreno's family added Alex Moreno carried a gun everywhere he went to protect his family from the long-running grudge Juan Meza and his brothers had against their family. Moreno did not have a license to carry a concealed weapon. Alex Moreno's wife wasn't clear on how the grudge started. She stated off-camera that it had come to the point that Moreno feared going out in public in fear of being confronted by the Meza family.

    "He threatened our family, and then my cousins and everybody. He did so many things. My dad never did once nothing," said Moreno's daughter.

    The arrest records for both men tell far different stories. Moreno of Cathedral City had one 1998 arrest for domestic violence. But Meza of Desert Hot Springs had multiple convictions for gun possession, assault with a deadly weapon and drug charges. Despite numerous convictions, Meza apparently did not serve any prison time.

    Palm Springs attorney Mark Sullivan has a theory.

    "I suspect that Juan Meza was a criminal and an informant for the police. The reason I say that is because the judges who sentenced him on all these cases are not lenient judges. They're very tough sentencing judges here in Indio, as they all are. None of the judges nowadays tolerate weapons possessions, especially repeat offenders who have never been to prison a day in their life."

    Stay tuned to News Channel 3 and KESQ.com as we follow the ongoing investigation into the tragic shooting on Black Friday.

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