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Thread: OC/CC in casinos/ casino restaurants?

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    A week or so ago I went to a casino for the buffet brunch and was CC'ing. As I wentthru the casino section on the way in I thought "Oh-oh! Maybe I shouldn't be carrying in here" and took special cautions to be sure it was covered-up. It stayed covered and there were no incidents but the thoughtoccurs about what laws apply in Indian-owned properties. Are they State (RCW) or federal because Indian reservations are basically federal lands? If it's State, then I would assume 9.41.300 would apply and sections that are off-limits to minors would be no-carry areas. But what about the restaurant itself? OTOH, the whole place could be no-carry because one has to go thru the casino to get to the dining area. I'm completely in the dark about this. Any help here?

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    USUALLY you are on Indian land which is a sovereign country, neither State nor Federal. They can make their own laws and you have no constitutional rights there.

    But just because you are at a Casino does not mean that it is a) Indian or b) if it is Indian that it is on their land as they can do business off of their land too depending on what state/local laws allow.

    Kaneehta (sp?) in central Oregon is no weapons allowed...and fwiw that also is true for the parts of Hwy 26 that go through their land! Good thing THAT is not enforced.

    -adamsesq

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    Regular Member Cremator75's Avatar
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    adamsesq wrote:
    Kaneehta (sp?) in central Oregon is no weapons allowed

    -adamsesq
    Kaneehta?

    Whoops!

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    adamsesq wrote:
    USUALLY you are on Indian land which is a sovereign country, neither State nor Federal. They can make their own laws and you have no constitutional rights there.
    You are way off. Indian laws only apply to tribal members. Non-tribal members fall under state law. As for carrying in a tribal casino in Wa. I do not believe they fall under the Washington State liquor control board, I could be wrong though. If that is the case then carrying would be OK in the casino itself per law but the casinos definitely do not allow it.

    The only recourse the tribe has for you carrying on their land without permission is to trespass you from the tribal land.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    adamsesq wrote:
    USUALLY you are on Indian land which is a sovereign country, neither State nor Federal. They can make their own laws and you have no constitutional rights there.
    You are way off. Indian laws only apply to tribal members. Non-tribal members fall under state law. As for carrying in a tribal casino in Wa. I do not believe they fall under the Washington State liquor control board, I could be wrong though. If that is the case then carrying would be OK in the casino itself per law but the casinos definitely do not allow it.

    The only recourse the tribe has for you carrying on their land without permission is to trespass you from the tribal land.
    I find it hard to believe the tribes have one set of laws for their own members and another for everyone else. There must be a uniform set of laws that govern all Indian lands, including the casinos. It sure would help us if there is an Indian member out here somewhere.

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    If it is a casino that does not serve booze (18+ can gamble) you are okay. But if the casino sells alcohol on the gaming floor (21+) than state law does come into effect for an area restricted to 21+.

    Many casinos resteraunts are on the outside of the gaming area and have no restrictions.

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    joeroket wrote:
    adamsesq wrote:
    USUALLY you are on Indian land which is a sovereign country, neither State nor Federal. They can make their own laws and you have no constitutional rights there.
    You are way off. Indian laws only apply to tribal members. Non-tribal members fall under state law. As for carrying in a tribal casino in Wa. I do not believe they fall under the Washington State liquor control board, I could be wrong though. If that is the case then carrying would be OK in the casino itself per law but the casinos definitely do not allow it.
    Joe - this doesn't make sense to me. You say non-tribal members fall under state law and not Indian law, but then say that casinos don't allow it. If state law applied to non tribal members the casions, which are owned by the tribe, would fall under pre-emption and they could not prohibit it.

    That said, I think the answer may not be as clear as I asserted it to be. I tried to spend a few minutes incoming up with the answer and have found that it is not going to be that quick and easy. Part of my quick research led me to Bugenig v. Hoopa Valley Tribe, No 99-15654 (9th Cir. September 11, 2001) which opens a whole lot of doors and includes some cites to some cases regarding the Yakima tribe(s). I don't have the ability to exhaust this research right now. I did put out a query to some Indian Law lawyers that I know to see what input they have. I'll post back when I have some better info.

    Do you have some research that suggests you can carry on Indian land?

    -adamsesq

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    adamsesq wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    adamsesq wrote:
    USUALLY you are on Indian land which is a sovereign country, neither State nor Federal. They can make their own laws and you have no constitutional rights there.
    You are way off. Indian laws only apply to tribal members. Non-tribal members fall under state law. As for carrying in a tribal casino in Wa. I do not believe they fall under the Washington State liquor control board, I could be wrong though. If that is the case then carrying would be OK in the casino itself per law but the casinos definitely do not allow it.
    Joe - this doesn't make sense to me. You say non-tribal members fall under state law and not Indian law, but then say that casinos don't allow it. If state law applied to non tribal members the casions, which are owned by the tribe, would fall under pre-emption and they could not prohibit it.

    That said, I think the answer may not be as clear as I asserted it to be. I tried to spend a few minutes incoming up with the answer and have found that it is not going to be that quick and easy. Part of my quick research led me to Bugenig v. Hoopa Valley Tribe, No 99-15654 (9th Cir. September 11, 2001) which opens a whole lot of doors and includes some cites to some cases regarding the Yakima tribe(s). I don't have the ability to exhaust this research right now. I did put out a query to some Indian Law lawyers that I know to see what input they have. I'll post back when I have some better info.

    Do you have some research that suggests you can carry on Indian land?

    -adamsesq
    Now THIS is the kind of answer I was looking for

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    Back when I was trying to get Clearwater Casino to change their signage incorrectly quoting RCW 9.41.300 I asked what would happen if a non tribal member was caught carrying in the casino area. I was told they'd be detained and released to Sheriff's office. If they were a tribal member they'd be delt with by Tribal police. Not sure if that helps, but that was what I was informed of by the security cheif.

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    G27 wrote:
    Back when I was trying to get Clearwater Casino to change their signage incorrectly quoting RCW 9.41.300 I asked what would happen if a non tribal member was caught carrying in the casino area. I was told they'd be detained and released to Sheriff's office. If they were a tribal member they'd be delt with by Tribal police. Not sure if that helps, but that was what I was informed of by the security cheif.
    That helps a lot, but there's a lot more to learn about this. What I'm fishing for is the overall body of law that governs the casinos, and some detail about how that law says we should conduct ourselves when we go there. Specifically, (a) whether it is lawful to carry at all in the gaming areas (tentative answer to that is No); (b) whether it is lawful to carry in the restaurants; (c) if it is lawful to carry in the restaurants, is it lawful to carry through the gaming areas in-transit to the restaurant, and (d) whether there is any distinction under the applicable law between OC and CC. These answers will need to come from either an Indian attorney, or someone familiar with the casinos in a legal or related business environment.

    This is turning out to be really interesting.

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    G27 wrote:
    Back when I was trying to get Clearwater Casino to change their signage incorrectly quoting RCW 9.41.300 I asked what would happen if a non tribal member was caught carrying in the casino area. I was told they'd be detained and released to Sheriff's office. If they were a tribal member they'd be delt with by Tribal police. Not sure if that helps, but that was what I was informed of by the security cheif.
    What you need to take into account on the Suquamish Reservation is that both the Sheriff and the Tribal police have jurisdiction... The Sheriff's department deals with the non-tribal and tribal police deals with tribal... Although, tribal police are licensed peace officers, so they have the same abilities as any LEO on tribal or non-tribal persons... The Suquamish Reservation is one of the only reservations in the state that works like this with the local PD with dual jurisdiction, and they are one of only about 3 tribal PD's that are actually CJTC Certified peace officers.

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    adamsesq wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    adamsesq wrote:
    USUALLY you are on Indian land which is a sovereign country, neither State nor Federal. They can make their own laws and you have no constitutional rights there.
    You are way off. Indian laws only apply to tribal members. Non-tribal members fall under state law. As for carrying in a tribal casino in Wa. I do not believe they fall under the Washington State liquor control board, I could be wrong though. If that is the case then carrying would be OK in the casino itself per law but the casinos definitely do not allow it.
    Joe - this doesn't make sense to me. You say non-tribal members fall under state law and not Indian law, but then say that casinos don't allow it. If state law applied to non tribal members the casions, which are owned by the tribe, would fall under pre-emption and they could not prohibit it.

    That said, I think the answer may not be as clear as I asserted it to be. I tried to spend a few minutes incoming up with the answer and have found that it is not going to be that quick and easy. Part of my quick research led me to Bugenig v. Hoopa Valley Tribe, No 99-15654 (9th Cir. September 11, 2001) which opens a whole lot of doors and includes some cites to some cases regarding the Yakima tribe(s). I don't have the ability to exhaust this research right now. I did put out a query to some Indian Law lawyers that I know to see what input they have. I'll post back when I have some better info.

    Do you have some research that suggests you can carry on Indian land?

    -adamsesq
    The tribe is not bound by pre-emption because of their sovereign status. They are however not allowed to use tribal law against a non-tribal member, they can however trespass you for any reason they see fit because of their status. Their police are only allowed to detain you for a reasonable time until a State Commissioned officer can come and take possession of you, that is assuming you violated a state law. This is one reason Wa. now allows for tribal officers who meet state commissioning requirements can be deputized by the Sheriff in which their land sits in.

    The Tulalip Tribe has 19 of their 27 officers that meet state requirements and Sheriff Lovick is going to deputize them so they can arrest for state offenses.

    The case you cited deals with logging on tribal land by non-tribal members. It is hardly comparable.

    I will get back with case law about it. It has been discussed numerous times on the forums and I have done hours and hours of research into it personally.

    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    This has been talked about in detail in the past with varied answers. The general consensus was that A) No. Casinos are for the most part of tribal land and in their Gaming Commission Codes, almost every one that I have looked at banned guns on their gaming floors. B) It was decided that for the most part if your child could go, then your gun is allowed. So if your child was allowed to eat in the restaurant, so could your firearm. C) I wouldn't believe so, but no casino would allow someone to carry a firearm in them out of liability reasons, at least that was the answer I was given.

    Biggest thing to remember is casinos are on tribal land and they do have the ability to make their own rules. Now IIRC, a non-tribal member cannot be charged with a crime unless it is also illegal in Washington state. So if you're caught carrying a weapon on tribal land, you can't be charge cause there is no code in Washington State to charge you with, unless it was in a prohibited area mentioned in RCW 9.41.300. This doesn't mean that you wouldn't be banned from tribal land on threats of arrest by tresspassing.

    Reference these past threads for more information:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...ghlight=casino

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/5774.html



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    There is another source of information: National Tribal Justice Resource Center
    http://www.tribalresourcecenter.org/

    Looking for Tribal Codes & Charters:
    http://www.ntjrc.org/triballaw/codesdirectory.asp

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    Here are the two cases that deal with criminal authority. Both hold that tribes do not have criminal authority over non-tribal members. Tribes do, like I said above, retain the ability to trespass a person from their land. The catch of that is that they cannot prosecute you for trespassing and there is no federal statute that would allow the federal government to prosecute for the trespass either.

    OLIPHANT v. SUQUAMISH INDIAN TRIBE, 435 U.S. 191 (1978)

    DURO v. REINA, 495 U.S. 676 (1990)
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    GREAT DISCUSSION !!! I knew someone would have the answers, and I thank everyone who chipped in.

    Summary: it looks like the casinos have a patchwork of laws and going to any of them requires some specific research. Barring that, the safe course is to simply not carry, and I think given my druthers I probably would choose that.

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    It's even "worse" than a patchwork of laws. Here is what I got back from someone who practices exclusively Indian law. Unfortunately it comes to the same answer I did just A LOT more artfully:


    I see. I think the issue of the casino may complicate the legal landscape. That is, the casino is operated under the authority of a federal statute (IGRA), that authorized the use of a binding tribal-state compact (i.e. contract) to govern almost all the terms of operation of the casino (including health and safety and firearms issues). Pursuant to IGRA, the federal National Indian Gaming Commission has published rules on operation of tribal casinos, that would probably apply here (in addition to rules through the compact, and the tribe's own gaming regulations).

    My hunch is that federal law prohibits a handgun in any tribal casino, and this prohibition is enforced through the compact and the NIGC regs applicable to the tribal casino (and probably also mirrored in the tribe's own regs).

    Thus, I thinkstate law (applicable perhaps not as a verbatim law in thestate statutes but rather through the compact the State signed with the Tribe and approved by the NIGC) would provide that you can't bring a handgun into a casino, and the tribe's regulations would provide the same, and the tribal-state compactprobably authorizes a tribal gaming agent or a state gaming agent to enforce this prohibition (and maybe the NIGC gaming agents or the FBI can enforce this prohibition too).

    Short answer - no guns in casinos except for security people and the state, tribe, and feds can probably all enforce this prohibition.


    :X

    -adamsesq

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    I like your short answer: No firearms in casinos, period. I'm just glad I got that eerie feeling and kept it covered, and left as soon as I finished my meal.

    And thanks for this great resource we know as OpenCarry.org--- I got my answer and a lot more

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    Adam that is the answer you got from a so-called indian law attorney? holy crap what a crappy answer.

    All of the research I have done I have found nothing that would indicate that there is a federal issue with firearms in casinos. Just that Casino's themselves say no. Even letters, like the one above, from a tribal lawyer say that it is a casino policy and tribal law. There is not even the word firearm in the IGRC.

    Apparently I was wrong about the liquor board.
    http://liq.wa.gov/releases/pr070503.asp
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Richard6218 wrote:
    No firearms in casinos, period.
    This is the conclusion we come to every time we have this discussion.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    Adam that is the answer you got from a so-called indian law attorney? holy crap what a crappy answer.

    All of the research I have done I have found nothing that would indicate that there is a federal issue with firearms in casinos. Just that Casino's themselves say no. Even letters, like the one above, from a tribal lawyer say that it is a casino policy and tribal law. There is not even the word firearm in the IGRC.

    Apparently I was wrong about the liquor board.
    http://liq.wa.gov/releases/pr070503.asp
    I don't write 'em I only repeat 'em. I asked for an off the cuff answer and that is what I received. I didn't pay him for his answer and won't complain about an answer that I wasn't paying for.

    -adamsesq

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    joeroket wrote:
    Richard6218 wrote:
    No firearms in casinos, period.
    This is the conclusion we come to every time we have this discussion.
    Sorry for the ignorance but I don't think I was around for the other discussions, so the whole topic was new to me.

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    adamsesq wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    Adam that is the answer you got from a so-called indian law attorney? holy crap what a crappy answer.

    All of the research I have done I have found nothing that would indicate that there is a federal issue with firearms in casinos. Just that Casino's themselves say no. Even letters, like the one above, from a tribal lawyer say that it is a casino policy and tribal law. There is not even the word firearm in the IGRC.

    Apparently I was wrong about the liquor board.
    http://liq.wa.gov/releases/pr070503.asp
    I don't write 'em I only repeat 'em. I asked for an off the cuff answer and that is what I received. I didn't pay him for his answer and won't complain about an answer that I wasn't paying for.

    -adamsesq
    Agreed.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Richard6218 wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    Richard6218 wrote:
    No firearms in casinos, period.
    This is the conclusion we come to every time we have this discussion.
    Sorry for the ignorance but I don't think I was around for the other discussions, so the whole topic was new to me.
    No you probably were not around but it is no big deal to round up the info again. This time I created PDF's of those two cases and posted them in the download at NWCDL.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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