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Thread: Agressive dog?

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    I was walking with my daughter and my 2 little dogs on Thanksgiving and I encounterd a situation that got me thinking. We walked by a yard that had a pitbull in it. The dog was contained by a fence but it was biting and scratching at the fence trying to get out. Later I was pondering a thought, if that dog had got out and attacked us would I be justified to shoot it? Or for that matter if a stray attacked us would i be justified? Thank you in advance for any responses.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO!

    Shooting an attacking dog is difficult at best. Most folks who have been there and done that say that no matter what else happens (except being extremely lucky)some part of your body isgoing to end up getting tangled with the dog's teeth. Some folks say giving the dog your non-dominant arm to bite on gives you a chance to control the dog's movement and allows you to get a downwards shot at the top of the head (if you are really lucky) or into the chest area from above. Again, those that have BTDT suggest a contact shot (muzzle in contact with the part you want to shoot) provides a better chance of actually making the shot as opposed to missing.

    In either case you run a high risk of shooting yourself as well if the bullet goes all the way through.

    Unless you can get hold of an airsoft gun, it is difficult and probably dangerous to practice this scenario except as a dryfire exercise. In either case, I'd recommend a coach/observer to let you know if you just shot off your big toe instead of Bowser.

    In answer to your question: if you do not do something to stopa dog attacking you or your children (dog charging with all the other signs of wanting you for lunch) you will become lunchmeat. Unless you are carrying a baseball bat or a golf club as well as a handgun, then shooting is probably your best option when there is no chance of safe retreat.

    Sort out the "discharge of a firearm within xx feet of an occupied dwelling" and "no discharge of firearms within city limits" issues later.

    stay safe.
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    If an attack were to occur, i would make deadly force my last action. A standard sized adult can usually handle an agressive animal whether it be a swift kick to the lower chin of the dog or using a stick of some sort to keep distance betwen you and the animal. Do not run, hold your position and try not to hold an intimidating posture. Stop, down, or get out of here sometimes work, but if this fails and the dog bites, you can always go for the eyes. This will usually work. If all else fails and it gets that serious, kill the damn thing.

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    I've run into this problem with my neighbor's aggressive German Shepard dog (tore my son's ear nearly completely off, bite marks on his head = 36 stitches).

    VA has a "one bite rule"--meaning a dog can get away with a "free" bite without being declared a dangerous animal (unless a previous record has been established).

    In my case, Animal Control was called by the ER (and us)--they did their "investigation" which included interviewing the dog owner, who claimed my son aggravated the dog. The owners boys said the dog ran off while they were playing....then came back and attacked my son from behind. 10-day in-house quarentine...no other punishment

    No photos were taken of my sone, except by me.

    OBTW--the owner never called 911...she called my wife, who took him to the local ambulance company for transport to the ER.

    After consulting an atty--the advice I received: if the dog is on your property, or you are in fear for you life or your child's life...shoot the dog dead. Do not wound.

    If I were you, I would tell you to avoid going near the property...walk somewhere else.

    If unavoidable, take pictures...and a firearm. Protect your kids.

    IRT an adult handling a dog....go try it yourself. The dog should be DRT

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    jayarmbar wrote:
    I was walking with my daughter and my 2 little dogs on Thanksgiving and I encounterd a situation that got me thinking. We walked by a yard that had a pitbull in it. The dog was contained by a fence but it was biting and scratching at the fence trying to get out. Later I was pondering a thought, if that dog had got out and attacked us would I be justified to shoot it? Or for that matter if a stray attacked us would i be justified? Thank you in advance for any responses.


    HardChrome wrote:
    Mean dog bites the dust after eating a bullet.

    http://www.wpxi.com/news/18174826/detail.html

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    thank you all. I won't be walking by that area again as I do not want to put myself in that position. Clearly there are other alternatives but if I am walking with my children I will use dealy force on a pitbull or other large dog. If it was a pug differnt story.

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    skidmark wrote:
    Welcome to OCDO!

    Shooting an attacking dog is difficult at best. Most folks who have been there and done that say that no matter what else happens (except being extremely lucky)some part of your body isgoing to end up getting tangled with the dog's teeth. Some folks say giving the dog your non-dominant arm to bite on gives you a chance to control the dog's movement and allows you to get a downwards shot at the top of the head (if you are really lucky) or into the chest area from above. Again, those that have BTDT suggest a contact shot (muzzle in contact with the part you want to shoot) provides a better chance of actually making the shot as opposed to missing.

    In either case you run a high risk of shooting yourself as well if the bullet goes all the way through.

    Unless you can get hold of an airsoft gun, it is difficult and probably dangerous to practice this scenario except as a dryfire exercise. In either case, I'd recommend a coach/observer to let you know if you just shot off your big toe instead of Bowser.

    In answer to your question: if you do not do something to stopa dog attacking you or your children (dog charging with all the other signs of wanting you for lunch) you will become lunchmeat. Unless you are carrying a baseball bat or a golf club as well as a handgun, then shooting is probably your best option when there is no chance of safe retreat.

    Sort out the "discharge of a firearm within xx feet of an occupied dwelling" and "no discharge of firearms within city limits" issues later.

    stay safe.
    Thank you. I have trained with security dogs and you made some great points. I will have to consider more training.

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    The dog DIDN'T get out.

    Now, avoid that location on your walks.

    If you are attacked by a vicious dog, one capable of causing severe injury, you are going to be well within your rights to use deadly force against the dog.

    Remember, its not the dog's fault that it misbehaves. Its the owner's fault. Its the owner you will have to deal with, even if you do kill his dog. You really want to avoid that situation if humanly possible.

    Just because we are armed, does not make it wise to electively present ourselves in places of danger.
    Protect yourself at all times.

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    It makes more sense to me that it would be legal to shoot a bad dog owner once rather than a perfectly good dog that has been badly trained weekly.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    W.E.G. wrote:
    The dog DIDN'T get out.

    Now, avoid that location on your walks.

    If you are attacked by a vicious dog, one capable of causing severe injury, you are going to be well within your rights to use deadly force against the dog.

    Remember, its not the dog's fault that it misbehaves. Its the owner's fault. Its the owner you will have to deal with, even if you do kill his dog. You really want to avoid that situation if humanly possible.

    Just because we are armed, does not make it wise to electively present ourselves in places of danger.
    Protect yourself at all times.
    If you read my post 2 posts up from yours I stated that I wouldn't be walking by that location again. I won't put my children or myself in that situation if I can avoid it. I would take no pleasure from killing a dog. I just had a question that I wanted an answer to. I do belive as you do that there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. My question was more hypothetical in nature.

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    I remember serving a subpoena once at a house whose front yard was next to the rear yard of a neighboring home.

    As I approached the target house, 2 pits came screaming from nowhere and tried their best to leap the fence and invite me to be lunch. I served the paper as I walked back, the dogs almost leaped the fence. There is no doubt in my mind, knowing the aggressive nature of pits, that I would have shot both if they cleared the fence.

    Oh, and the subpoena - it was for a complaint against the neighbor for allowing vicious dogs to run at large. The homeowner was quite nearly attacked one morning by Fido 1 and 2.
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    ProShooter wrote:
    I remember serving a subpoena once at a house whose front yard was next to the rear yard of a neighboring home.

    As I approached the target house, 2 pits came screaming from nowhere and tried their best to leap the fence and invite me to be lunch. I served the paper as I walked back, the dogs almost leaped the fence. There is no doubt in my mind, knowing the aggressive nature of pits, that I would have shot both if they cleared the fence.

    Oh, and the subpoena - it was for a complaint against the neighbor for allowing vicious dogs to run at large. The homeowner was quite nearly attacked one morning by Fido 1 and 2.
    Sounds like if they had managed to clear the fence, you would have saved everyone a bit of time in court!

    TFred

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    What would be the legality of carrying a collapsible baton to ward off an attacking dog? The concealable weapons statute says nothing of them...

    I am aware of the position it would put you in using it against a person, but what about a four legged attacker? Say you are out on a walk with your pet and a rabid dog starts attacking? I wouldn't want to start firing at the attacking dog out of fear of hitting my own.

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    If you are in fear for your life or of serious bodily damage you can shoot that dog, but if the dog is on the owners property don't.

    Several years ago I killed a neighbors pitbull, 1 shot 9mm. The police didn't even talk to me, but were atmy neighbors home for hours. I moved several months latter, LOL. They suspected me but never knew for sure or mentioned it. The Folks in the neighborhood tell me they don't let their new dog roam the neighborhood.



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    I almost shot someones Black Lab while taking a walk one night. It was 2 AM and someone had opened their front door to let it out to go to the bathroom. I was on the oppositeside of the street which was 4 lanes wide with an additional parking lane on each side. The houses are set back at least 75 feet from the curb with sidewalks about 6 feet from the curb. It took off immediately barking and running at me. It was half way accross the street with the owner trying to call it back when I turned to face it and placed my hand on my pistol and started to draw. It finally broke offthe attack and turned away comming within 15 feet of me. I have no doubt Fido would have been pushing up daisys if it had not turned away. I don't care if it would have been a legal shooot or not. I refuse to be anywhere but at the top of the food chain. I also carry a Spyderco Endura II that I have learned to flip open quickly. If attacked and I am not carrying a pistol I would offer the dog my left arm and gut it with the spyderco. Stab it in the crotch and pull to the sternum. That reminds me, I need to sharpen it.
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    Bill in VA wrote:
    Well, I guess we can pretty easily tell who in this thread owns dogs and who doesn't because those of us who own dogs know that, in general, a dog barking and running towards someone/something is not in attack mode. (And honestly, I think some folks are just young 20-something guys itching to be able to use the guns they carry.)

    I think it's important that we differentiate between an "aggressive dog" and an "attacking dog." One is not synonymous with the other, and by the same token, shootingoneis not equal to shooting the other. (Consider: If I holler and shout and curse yyou there's no doubt I'm acting aggressive; but that aggresiveness isn't the same thign as actually attacking you.) Likewise, a barking dog, or even a barking dog approaching you is not necessarily an attack. In fact, dogs rarely attack. They attack when they're frightened, diseased (think: rabid, distemper), or cornered.

    Dogs bark, they run: they're naturally curious and generally bark when they see something/someone new or out of place. Dogs have a lot of body language and that body language says a whole lot more than any barking ever will. Ears up, tail up=good mood. Ears flattened back, snarling/lips curled, hackles up=bad mood/angry dog. Dogs are also territorial. They naturally bark and want to "check out" anything in their territory. That's not the same as saying they're in attack mode simply because they're barking and approaching. If you're going to shot a dog, you'd best sure of a couple of things: the dog really is attacking, not just "being aggressive." The "I was in fear for my life because he barked and approached me" defense isn't going to cut it with many prosecutors nor dog owners. (It's no different than Uncle Jimbo and Ned saying "Look out! that bunny's coming right for us!") In addition to being sure you're actually being attacked you'd also best be sure you're not in the dog's yard and/or that he's out of his. (And no, shooting a dog who's in the street and barking at you doesn't count. Again: think "attack" vs "aggression/barking. Finally, consider the emotional baggage that comes with shooting a dog. Think about haivng to explain to your kid that some guy shot your dog because he was scared and thought Fluffy was going to bite him.

    I'm not sayig dogs don't attack, and I'm not saying don't shoot if you/your loved onesfear you truly are in danger. If you/they are: shoot. Just be damened sure of what you're doing first. (And woe betide to anyone who shoots a dog on its own property.)

    Hey now, im 23 and read my response...man, always picking on the youngins in the group!


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    Bill in VA wrote:
    (It's no different than Uncle Jimbo and Ned saying "Look out! that bunny's coming right for us!")
    What if it was Jimmy Carter that said that?

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    Bill in VA wrote:
    Well, I guess we can pretty easily tell who in this thread owns dogs and who doesn't because those of us who own dogs know that, in general, a dog barking and running towards someone/something is not in attack mode. (And honestly, I think some folks are just young 20-something guys itching to be able to use the guns they carry.)

    I think it's important that we differentiate between an "aggressive dog" and an "attacking dog." One is not synonymous with the other, and by the same token, shootingoneis not equal to shooting the other. (Consider: If I holler and shout and curse yyou there's no doubt I'm acting aggressive; but that aggresiveness isn't the same thign as actually attacking you.) Likewise, a barking dog, or even a barking dog approaching you is not necessarily an attack. In fact, dogs rarely attack. They attack when they're frightened, diseased (think: rabid, distemper), or cornered.

    Dogs bark, they run: they're naturally curious and generally bark when they see something/someone new or out of place. Dogs have a lot of body language and that body language says a whole lot more than any barking ever will. Ears up, tail up=good mood. Ears flattened back, snarling/lips curled, hackles up=bad mood/angry dog. Dogs are also territorial. They naturally bark and want to "check out" anything in their territory. That's not the same as saying they're in attack mode simply because they're barking and approaching. If you're going to shot a dog, you'd best sure of a couple of things: the dog really is attacking, not just "being aggressive." The "I was in fear for my life because he barked and approached me" defense isn't going to cut it with many prosecutors nor dog owners. (It's no different than Uncle Jimbo and Ned saying "Look out! that bunny's coming right for us!") In addition to being sure you're actually being attacked you'd also best be sure you're not in the dog's yard and/or that he's out of his. (And no, shooting a dog who's in the street and barking at you doesn't count. Again: think "attack" vs "aggression/barking. Finally, consider the emotional baggage that comes with shooting a dog. Think about haivng to explain to your kid that some guy shot your dog because he was scared and thought Fluffy was going to bite him.

    I'm not sayig dogs don't attack, and I'm not saying don't shoot if you/your loved onesfear you truly are in danger. If you/they are: shoot. Just be damened sure of what you're doing first. (And woe betide to anyone who shoots a dog on its own property.)
    I don't think it is obvious....as I own two dogs...have owned dogs all of my life. I know the difference between an aggressive dog and one that is protective. I'm also a responsible dog owner who limits my dogs to my property and conducts regular obedience training to ensure positive control.

    So while your post may have been intended to be helpful, it comes off as condescending.

    I'm pretty sure no one here is out to shoot anyone/anything...I believe we're more responsible than that.

    However, any dog that is NOT mine, that is on my property that tries to assert his territory with the behavior (Ears flattened back, snarling/lips curled, hackles up=bad mood/angry dog)--will most likely end up DRT. If they do that to me, I can think of worse things if my kids are out in the yard.

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    Bill in VA wrote:
    Well, I guess we can pretty easily tell who in this thread owns dogs and who doesn't because those of us who own dogs know that, in general, a dog barking and running towards someone/something is not in attack mode. (And honestly, I think some folks are just young 20-something guys itching to be able to use the guns they carry.)

    I think it's important that we differentiate between an "aggressive dog" and an "attacking dog." One is not synonymous with the other, and by the same token, shootingoneis not equal to shooting the other. (Consider: If I holler and shout and curse yyou there's no doubt I'm acting aggressive; but that aggresiveness isn't the same thign as actually attacking you.) Likewise, a barking dog, or even a barking dog approaching you is not necessarily an attack. In fact, dogs rarely attack. They attack when they're frightened, diseased (think: rabid, distemper), or cornered.

    Dogs bark, they run: they're naturally curious and generally bark when they see something/someone new or out of place. Dogs have a lot of body language and that body language says a whole lot more than any barking ever will. Ears up, tail up=good mood. Ears flattened back, snarling/lips curled, hackles up=bad mood/angry dog. Dogs are also territorial. They naturally bark and want to "check out" anything in their territory. That's not the same as saying they're in attack mode simply because they're barking and approaching. If you're going to shot a dog, you'd best sure of a couple of things: the dog really is attacking, not just "being aggressive." The "I was in fear for my life because he barked and approached me" defense isn't going to cut it with many prosecutors nor dog owners. (It's no different than Uncle Jimbo and Ned saying "Look out! that bunny's coming right for us!") In addition to being sure you're actually being attacked you'd also best be sure you're not in the dog's yard and/or that he's out of his. (And no, shooting a dog who's in the street and barking at you doesn't count. Again: think "attack" vs "aggression/barking. Finally, consider the emotional baggage that comes with shooting a dog. Think about haivng to explain to your kid that some guy shot your dog because he was scared and thought Fluffy was going to bite him.

    I'm not sayig dogs don't attack, and I'm not saying don't shoot if you/your loved onesfear you truly are in danger. If you/they are: shoot. Just be damened sure of what you're doing first. (And woe betide to anyone who shoots a dog on its own property.)
    In Virginia we have leash laws for a reason. A dog, off the property of its owner must be on a leash at all times by law.

    A large dog, barking and charging at me on a public sidewalk while off its leash is going to get shot. Period, end of story. You can give us your PETA, Must love dogs, spiel all you want. . .but if I feel i am about to die or face serious bodily injury, or if the same holds true for my family or children at the hands of this unleashed and very much uncontrolleddog while in a public place or especially my own property, Fido is going down hard so I can stop and control the situation.

    I don't have to defend my actions to prosecutors, nor to the "Dog owners" you mention . I'd have to defend my actions to a magistrate and/or a jury of 12. The "Dog owners" you mention can kiss my firm smooth lily white ass!

    As somebody who was attacked as a young boy by a pit bull and had 168 stitches in his face, scalp, arms and neck; I'll be the first to attest that a charging dog who is snarling and barking doesn't want to give you puppy kisses and get his belly rubbed. He wants to disembowel you for being on what IT perceives as its territory. It should be dispatched and put down immediately for the safety of the community.


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    Dude...get a grip.

    You'll really shoot someone over a dog?

    Now you're sounding like an internet commando...

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    I think someone stole bills password again

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