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Thread: Question for OC veterans

  1. #1
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    Hey all, I am new to the forum and open carry. I recently bought a Glock 23 and have been spending some time at the range honing my skills. I have been oc'ing my 23 with a blackhawk serpa retention holster. No news to report until Thanksgiving night. My brother and I went to Gander Mountain on Linden Rd. in Flint Twp. and were perusing their shotguns. My 23 was in open sight at 3:00 with may waist length jacket tucked behind the weapon. After being in the store for about 20 minutes and having been asked if I needed help by an associate, this same associate came back and said that I needed to cover up my pistol. Myself being a compliant patron dutifully pulled my jacket over my sidearm. It suddenly occurred to me that whereas before with my gun visible I was fully compliant to the law, now with it concealed I was in violation since I do not have a CPL. I turned to find the man again and saw him entering a back storeroom laughing to himself and shaking his head. We had pretty much finished our browsing and just left the store where I immediately revealed my gun again. Just looking for advice on how it should have been handled. What would you have done? Thanks in advance for the help.

  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    MadManFuManChu wrote:
    Hey all, I am new to the forum and open carry. I recently bought a Glock 23 and have been spending some time at the range honing my skills. I have been oc'ing my 23 with a blackhawk serpa retention holster. No news to report until Thanksgiving night. My brother and I went to Gander Mountain on Linden Rd. in Flint Twp. and were perusing their shotguns. My 23 was in open sight at 3:00 with may waist length jacket tucked behind the weapon. After being in the store for about 20 minutes and having been asked if I needed help by an associate, this same associate came back and said that I needed to cover up my pistol. Myself being a compliant patron dutifully pulled my jacket over my sidearm. It suddenly occurred to me that whereas before with my gun visible I was fully compliant to the law, now with it concealed I was in violation since I do not have a CPL. I turned to find the man again and saw him entering a back storeroom laughing to himself and shaking his head. We had pretty much finished our browsing and just left the store where I immediately revealed my gun again. Just looking for advice on how it should have been handled. What would you have done? Thanks in advance for the help.
    You did violate the law and could have faced a five year felony. You might have had a defense since your were "given permission" to cover by the owners agent. But I don't think it would fly.

    You should have stated that OC is legal, that you don't have a CPL and can't cover it, and that Gander Mountain's corporate policy states that lawful carry is allowed in it's stores. If that doesn't work ask for the manager and tell them the same thing, if they ask you to leave then leave, file a complaint with corporate and ask for them to deal with their local manager. If that fails shop somewhere more gun friendly.

    I would suggest a bit more research on this site. Be sure you know the laws better than the police. People that OC without a CPL are at a greater risk then those that have one. Just be careful, do not conceal it, and know how to handle an encounter with the public as well as the police.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
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    :what: I think you need to surrender your firearm to me at once noob!


    Signed,
    Getwild2 (MadManFuManChu's brother)

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    mastiff69 wrote:
    1
    Yeah, that.

    Venator's post was spot on. If your going to OC, you should understand the law, as well as your rights.

    My response (had I actually been OC'ing) would probably have been to request a manager, and then tell said manager that it's not only legal in Michigan, but that it is also my understanding that it's allowed under GM's corporate policy. If that didn't work, then of course follow up with the rest of Venator's request.



  6. #6
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    Yikes! 5 years!

    Thanks to all. After thinking it all through, I came to many of the same conclusions. Live and learn.

    BTW - be careful of listening to anything Getwild2 has to say, he looks down his barrel

  7. #7
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    I think its things like the possibility of a 5 year felony as a result of a quick oversight which give many gun owners cold feet when considering open carry. I've lurked on this forum for a few months just trying to drive these details into my head.

    I know there is nothing comparable to "just do it," but I am not quite there yet. I am glad you guys are out there keeping my rights alive while my feet "warm up" to the notion.

  8. #8
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    ghostrider wrote:
    mastiff69 wrote:
    1
    Yeah, that.

    Venator's post was spot on. If your going to OC, you should understand the law, as well as your rights.

    My response (had I actually been OC'ing) would probably have been to request a manager, and then tell said manager that it's not only legal in Michigan, but that it is also my understanding that it's allowed under GM's corporate policy. If that didn't work, then of course follow up with the rest of Venator's request.

    For me, Venator's post was spot on if you rearrange the steps. My first step would be to ask for a manager. Your standard employee usually does not have authority to kick you out, and it does little good to explain the law and corporate policy to them. Otherwise, he was right on.

    Do some research. Try to know how to handle these things before you have to deal with it in the wild.

  9. #9
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    MadManFuManChu wrote:
    Hey all, I am new to the forum and open carry. I recently bought a Glock 23 and have been spending some time at the range honing my skills. I have been oc'ing my 23 with a blackhawk serpa retention holster. No news to report until Thanksgiving night. My brother and I went to Gander Mountain on Linden Rd. in Flint Twp. and were perusing their shotguns. My 23 was in open sight at 3:00 with may waist length jacket tucked behind the weapon. After being in the store for about 20 minutes and having been asked if I needed help by an associate, this same associate came back and said that I needed to cover up my pistol. Myself being a compliant patron dutifully pulled my jacket over my sidearm. It suddenly occurred to me that whereas before with my gun visible I was fully compliant to the law, now with it concealed I was in violation since I do not have a CPL. I turned to find the man again and saw him entering a back storeroom laughing to himself and shaking his head. We had pretty much finished our browsing and just left the store where I immediately revealed my gun again. Just looking for advice on how it should have been handled. What would you have done? Thanks in advance for the help.

    There is a possibility that the associate may not have noticed the gun on the first encounter with you. The second encounter (cover up) may have been from many possibilities. To name a few:

    1) S/he may be a new employee and did not fully understand GM's policy on carrying.

    2) S/he may be PO'd that you can carry into GM-per their policy, state & federal laws-and not him or her.

    3) S/he may have discussed your carrying (OC) with other associates and that associate-who told you to cover up-lost the coin tosshad to confront you. In other words, s/he/they were trying to pull your chain.

    4) You get the idea....


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    The possibility of the employee being new gets me thinking...

    I doubt that a store's open carry policy would automatically make the "top 10" of corporate policies shared with new employees of any sporting goods store. Also, as it has been stated here on many different threads, most of the general public has been indoctrinated in some way with anti-gun ideologies. I bet many new employees automatically think open carry would not be allowed in their store, and that they should take action as an "official" store employee.

    Only by constantly and patiently addressing these episodes will local store managers move their open carry policies into the "top 10" issues they share with new employees.

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    Hcidem wrote:
    The possibility of the employee being new gets me thinking...

    I doubt that a store's open carry policy would automatically make the "top 10" of corporate policies shared with new employees of any sporting goods store. Also, as it has been stated here on many different threads, most of the general public has been indoctrinated in some way with anti-gun ideologies. I bet many new employees automatically think open carry would not be allowed in their store, and that they should take action as an "official" store employee.

    Only by constantly and patiently addressing these episodes will local store managers move their open carry policies into the "top 10" issues they share with new employees.
    I agree. However, IMO, many employees confuse the no weapons policy for employees with that of policies for clientele.

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    I could better understand if it were a wal mart or other non-firearm related business. But if a major part of your revenue comes from the sale of firearms, ammunition and firearms related goods, one would think that the employees trained to work in the firearms department would be trained to deal with the inevitable encounters with gun carrying customers, cc or otherwise. They also have a gunsmith shop in the department. It would seem that customers are openly carrying weapons through the store to get to the gunsmith counter. BTW, just for more info, the salesperson was a white male who appeared to be in his 60's and was well versed in dealing with firearms as I ascertained from listening to him deal with other customers w/in earshot.

    Maybe he was just messin' with me, i dunno

  13. #13
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    MadManFuManChu wrote:
    Myself being a compliant patron dutifully pulled my jacket over my sidearm.
    +1 on everything Venator said, and . . . you are not in someone's place of business to please them. You are there to spend money. Assert with employees and managers of stores, if they express a problem with your weapon, that the only thing you are there to do is spendX dollars (the larger X is, the better) and do they want to help you do that or do they want you to leave?

    Then, if necessary, leave. And write a letter later, with receipts from a competitor, to the store owner/corporate office.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    MadManFuManChu wrote:
    I could better understand if it were a wal mart or other non-firearm related business. But if a major part of your revenue comes from the sale of firearms, ammunition and firearms related goods, one would think that the employees trained to work in the firearms department would be trained to deal with the inevitable encounters with gun carrying customers, cc or otherwise. They also have a gunsmith shop in the department. It would seem that customers are openly carrying weapons through the store to get to the gunsmith counter. BTW, just for more info, the salesperson was a white male who appeared to be in his 60's and was well versed in dealing with firearms as I ascertained from listening to him deal with other customers w/in earshot.

    Maybe he was just messin' with me, i dunno
    MadMan, you're not talking about Warchild are you, I heard through reliable sources that he has a tendency to frequent GM every now and then. Jerry, you didn't tell us you are a door greeter at GM. J/K

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    I was "replaced" for telling people to pull up their damn pants!

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    WARCHILD wrote:
    I was "replaced" for telling people to pull up their damn pants!

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    I agree with most of the posts, including you were legally allowed to pull your coat over your firearm as you had the agent of GM's permission, but if the police were to have been called it would have been his word against yours, and his word may have changed drastically once they wanted to pop you for a CCW type violation.

    I also feel being a jacket under the holster the employee not being aware of the law or store policies probaly thought he was doing you a favor and that he felt your intention was to cover up. I wore my gun over my coat as well in similar fashion and it was just to awkward and looked like too much of a fashion mistake to continue to do so.

    Welcome to the world of OC

  18. #18
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    northofnowhere wrote:
    I agree with most of the posts, including you were legally allowed to pull your coat over your firearm as you had the agent of GM's permission, but if the police were to have been called it would have been his word against yours, and his word may have changed drastically once they wanted to pop you for a CCW type violation.

    I also feel being a jacket under the holster the employee not being aware of the law or store policies probaly thought he was doing you a favor and that he felt your intention was to cover up. I wore my gun over my coat as well in similar fashion and it was just to awkward and looked like too much of a fashion mistake to continue to do so.

    Welcome to the world of OC
    That's why a thigh-rig works well in the winter.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
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    pfft, a tactical jacket with zippers on the sides for a holster is way less mall-ninja than a thigh rig. :P

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    marshaul wrote:
    pfft, a tactical jacket with zippers on the sides for a holster is way less mall-ninja than a thigh rig. :P
    Agreed, if you have one. I used to have a modified waist coat that I had my mother do exactly that. Curious..... it seems to have walked away on it's zippers....

  21. #21
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    I was wearing a blue and maize Michigan jacket with an elastic waistband. Even without the holster, the jacket sits about the same place as when tucked behind the rig. Not to mention the puffy sleeve conceals the gun when my arm is hanging straight down. The black gun and holster also doesn't stand out as much when with the navy blue color of the jacket.

    Seems less mall ninja than either a thigh rig or a side-zipping tactical jacket

    I really appreciate all of you guys and your help. I've lurked for a while and really enjoy the discussions.

  22. #22
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    MadManFuManChu wrote:
    I was wearing a blue and maize Michigan jacket with an elastic waistband. Even without the holster, the jacket sits about the same place as when tucked behind the rig. Not to mention the puffy sleeve conceals the gun when my arm is hanging straight down. The black gun and holster also doesn't stand out as much when with the navy blue color of the jacket.

    Seems less mall ninja than either a thigh rig or a side-zipping tactical jacket

    I really appreciate all of you guys and your help. I've lurked for a while and really enjoy the discussions.
    Why in God's name would you choose a jacket like that??? I could see a green and white one, but THAT one???
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    LOL, I was waiting for that one once I noticed your location. It may be that the employee has similar poor taste in football teams and that's why he was targeting me.:P

  24. #24
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    You know with a thigh rig you can't cover it up as your jacket don't hang that low

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    edited for stupidity

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