Best self defense ammo??

buster81 · Dec 10, 2008

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FMCDH wrote:

and I want to kill the perp, not the 9 year old kid 100 feet behind and in the next room.

snip

Not to tell you your business, but it might be better to say that you want to STOP the perp. Just an opine.

Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel · Dec 10, 2008

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buster81 wrote:

FMCDH wrote:

and I want to kill the perp, not the 9 year old kid 100 feet behind and in the next room.

Click to expand...

snip

Not to tell you your business, but it might be better to say that you want to STOP the perp. Just an opine.

I agree and remember, the round you miss the perp with, and goes on down range,is far more deadly than ANY round that goes through and through a perp.

Remember that in a gunfight....most rounds miss.

KansasMustang · Dec 10, 2008

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I have some "Black Talons" from way back that I keep in my 9mm, but I understand that the "Golden Sabre' ammo is now the new name for it.

FMCDH · Dec 10, 2008

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buster81 wrote:

FMCDH wrote:

and I want to kill the perp, not the 9 year old kid 100 feet behind and in the next room.

Click to expand...

snip

Not to tell you your business, but it might be better to say that you want to STOP the perp. Just an opine.

And you can be as PC as you like, but if I point a firearm at someone for the purpose of self defense, it is with full knowledge and commitment that I will shoot until the threat is gone. If I shoot, I shoot to kill. You should never point a firearm at any living thing that you do not have the resolution to kill. If you are unable or unwilling to live with the idea that you might take another human life, then you should probably re-think your choice to carry a gun, or at least your choice to use it if something did happen.

You can shoot them in the leg or the arm to "stop" your attacker if you like. How you choose to deal with that situation is up to you and I would never second guess your choice.

Not to tell you your business

FMCDH · Dec 10, 2008

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Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:

buster81 wrote:

FMCDH wrote:

and I want to kill the perp, not the 9 year old kid 100 feet behind and in the next room.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I agree and remember, the round you miss the perp with, and goes on down range,is far more deadly than ANY round that goes through and through a perp.

Remember that in a gunfight....most rounds miss.

Paladin, please read the entire post that this (snip) came from and notice this statement was intended for both over penetration, AND accuracy.

opusd2 · Dec 10, 2008

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Personally, when I hit something I want it to know I was making it my target. So my ammo of choice has always been something like Winchester Silvertip or Remington Golden Saber as I like the way they beat cheeks to the point of aim and the nice hole it leaves behind as a reminder. That's a good way of making your point.

KansasMustang · Dec 11, 2008

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Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:

buster81 wrote:

FMCDH wrote:

and I want to kill the perp, not the 9 year old kid 100 feet behind and in the next room.

Click to expand...

snip

Not to tell you your business, but it might be better to say that you want to STOP the perp. Just an opine.

Click to expand...

I agree and remember, the round you miss the perp with, and goes on down range,is far more deadly than ANY round that goes through and through a perp.

Remember that in a gunfight....most rounds miss.

Paladin, rounds ONLY miss if you are untrained and not in combat mode, concentrate on the front site. Most "Gun Fights" will occur in speaking range within 3-5 meters at most. In the case of a breakin in your house it may be in touching distance. Hopefully, your first two rounds hit the chest cavity.
And it's my intent to shoot to compoletely remove the threat.

Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel · Dec 11, 2008

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KansasMustang wrote:

Paladin, rounds ONLY miss if you are untrained and not in combat mode, concentrate on the front site. Most "Gun Fights" will occur in speaking range within 3-5 meters at most. In the case of a breakin in your house it may be in touching distance. Hopefully, your first two rounds hit the chest cavity.
And it's my intent to shoot to kill and damn the consequences.

What is a “Gunfight”?

Technically, and as defined by NYPD SOP-9, a gunfight occurs when officers confront assailants armed with firearms. From a researcher’s standpoint, that distinction is important. However, differentiating between “reality” and human perception comes down to whether an officer is erroneously convinced that he/she is faced with an imminent threat from a firearm, or is actually under attack from a firearm. Is the perception of a firearm attack enough to influence the degradation of human (i.e., psychological & physiological) performance? The data seems to suggest that it does.

An annual breakdown of NYPD “Gunfight” hit-ratio data is differentiated in the table

below.

[align=center]NYPD GUNFIGHT STATISTICS [/align]
[align=center]1990-2000[/align]
[align=center][/align]

YEAR HIT PROBABILITY SF/GF SF/Officer

1990 19% 8.2 4.4

1991 15% 5.9 3.7

1992 17% 7.7 3.6

1993 15% Unavailable Unavailable

1994 12% 9.3 4.4

1995 18% 12.5 6.2

1996 14% 11.1 6.1

1997 10% 10.6 5.3

1998 25% 10.0 5.5

1999 13% 10.6 5.9

2000 9% 16.8 6.9

MEAN SCORES 15% 10.3 5.2

Training is good, but it does not make you unable to miss during a gunfight.

You may think that you are so well trained that you will not miss, but I am more realistic than that.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

M16a2 · Dec 11, 2008

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9mm or 40mm are the best rds. and the more powder the better! As any hollow point need lots of force to open up. The FBI is reveiwing all its data on this now. As a "shoot out " showed VERY bad for the PD/SWAT with 40. So we are looking into more ballistic tiped ammo. Rather than "just a large bullet". As many know 270>300 and even the "god given" .50 BMG is being beaten now by >.470.

So what you read isn't aways true. MANY MANY things are important. At this point I am carrying a 9mm with 15+1 and 127g bullets. But I have a AR15 DIAS(30rd mags times 15mags)in the truck for duty. So In a battle I hope I have the upper hand! My vest LVLIII helps...

Note: I had a Shotgun as my duty gun but as many agree it is way out performed by the AR. So even my home gun is a AR and shotgun. Girl likes the shoot gun more as it is a spread gun. And as much as it makes me mad she CCW's a 38spl. revolver or the judge with only 410. I want here to carry more rds. but she is too small for the semi auto slide spring.

Look at any military or LEO gun. Rds are more important than the bullet. For a tactical addvantange it helps.

Side note I still have 1 .32in my foot,3 9mm in my chest. And I am 100% fine. if it was a .223 I would be dead. In fact FN makes a bullet and handgun that I am looking at that would go throught a LVLII vest.

SO military and LEO's look for the the bullet that frags the most. as it does the most damage! And Custom loads are the best!

opusd2 · Dec 11, 2008

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I still belong to the school that says that if you take a big enough chunk out you'll stop anything. When shooting in an area like the woods with a lot of branches and other obstructions you will definitely lose accuracy bouncing around in the lot. Even a stiff breeze will push the smaller rounds off course, no matter what the speed.

That being said, any round carried is better than what's left at home so a the smaller calibers do have their place. And if I had any one particular long arm to rely on, it would be a pump shotgun. It's just more flexible in the munitions it fires and since the feed is mechanically operated, it won't have to be as clean as a gas operated auto.

opusd2 · Dec 11, 2008

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And M16a2, you aren't reffering to FN's 5.7x28, are you?

Superlite27 · Dec 11, 2008

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9mm or 40mm are the best rds.

Cough.....Cough...wheeeeeeeeeeeeze......

9mm = .45 set on stun.

I would personally prefer a .22 that hits the target than a 9mm that misses. All rounds and all guns are moot if you do not hit the target.

Paladin brought up the finest study ever done IMHO. Patrick Urey of the FBI basicly has proven that power, penetration, bullet diameter, expansion, and ALL ELSE is irrellevant in the face of PERMANENT WOUND CHANNEL OF VITAL ORGANS.

The bullet MUST physically strike and damage vital organs and blood vessels in order to physically stop a person. The "shock wave" (or temporary cavity) does not wound. Only the hole left by the bullet does the job. WHERE this hole is, is of the most importance.

A solid hit center of mass comes before any other thing such as bullet weight, caliber, velocity etc.

That being said, which is bigger? A .45 sized hole or a 9mm sized hole?

What was the best round again?

Walleye · Dec 11, 2008

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What was the best round again?

Ooh! I know! I know!

Its the...

Round you shoot best with!!!

Armed4Life · Dec 11, 2008

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Personally, I alternate.....1 JHP, 1 FMJ, 1 JHP, 1 FMJ etc. Seems to cover any and all possible scenarios.

deepdiver · Dec 11, 2008

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Armed4Life wrote:

Personally, I alternate.....1 JHP, 1 FMJ, 1 JHP, 1 FMJ etc. Seems to cover any and all possible scenarios.

Dutch loading. We had a somewhat lengthy discussion about that maybe a year ago. I recall it because I used to Dutch load myself with Ranger SXT and Corbon DPX. I now carry SXT (plan on switching to HST in the near future following reliability testing) in the pistol and a first backup mag of DPX.

M16a2 · Dec 12, 2008

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Not to be rude but how many gun fights you been in? Bullets fly and not many people get hit! And what if you arefighting off two or more people?And a well placed .22 0r .32 will put you down. And it hurts like a MF. I was carrying a HK fullsize .40 with Golden Sabers. And I can say for a fact that they(2rds) will stop a person dead.

I understand everyone will have a different opinion on this and that is fine. But why don't any LE carry .45 and if it is so great why have extra clips!

And yes that is the FN I am talking about.

If you look into when and how far most all crimes happen. And how long a standardshoot out takes. Then look at the specs on the .9,.40,.45. the 45 has a more muzzle power but will bleed off faster due to the mass of the bullet. We are seeing the police issued .40 bullets didn't have power to open up or even togo very deep.

At this point I have been messing with custom bullets. Standard case this custom bullet and powder. Should be faster than any 9mm and break rather than spread.

Statistics show the top guns used in shootings are very small calibers .32 being the most common. not very loud, small and concealable, very low recoil.

If .45 is good .500 or even .50 should be better? Right Oh or the .600 and .700 nitro express:uhoh:

Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel · Dec 12, 2008

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opusd2 wrote:

I still belong to the school that says that if you take a big enough chunk out you'll stop anything. When shooting in an area like the woods with a lot of branches and other obstructions you will definitely lose accuracy bouncing around in the lot. Even a stiff breeze will push the smaller rounds off course, no matter what the speed.

That being said, any round carried is better than what's left at home so a the smaller calibers do have their place. And if I had any one particular long arm to rely on, it would be a pump shotgun. It's just more flexible in the munitions it fires and since the feed is mechanically operated, it won't have to be as clean as a gas operated auto.

I agree

Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel · Dec 12, 2008

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Superlite27 wrote:

9mm or 40mm are the best rds.

Click to expand...

Cough.....Cough...wheeeeeeeeeeeeze......

9mm = .45 set on stun.

I would personally prefer a .22 that hits the target than a 9mm that misses. All rounds and all guns are moot if you do not hit the target.

Paladin brought up the finest study ever done IMHO. Patrick Urey of the FBI basicly has proven that power, penetration, bullet diameter, expansion, and ALL ELSE is irrellevant in the face of PERMANENT WOUND CHANNEL OF VITAL ORGANS.

The bullet MUST physically strike and damage vital organs and blood vessels in order to physically stop a person. The "shock wave" (or temporary cavity) does not wound. Only the hole left by the bullet does the job. WHERE this hole is, is of the most importance.

A solid hit center of mass comes before any other thing such as bullet weight, caliber, velocity etc.

That being said, which is bigger? A .45 sized hole or a 9mm sized hole?

What was the best round again?

:lol::lol::lol:Man I love it :lol::lol::lol:

Hawkflyer · Dec 12, 2008

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Some here have mentioned the FBI study done a while back and the results did conclude that wound channel is where is at as far as stopping human targets. An almost forgotten element of that same study showed that hollow point bullets will almost always fail to perform if they have to penetrate cloth much thicker than the average "t" shirt. (The cloth fills the hollow point and converts the bullet into a round nose ball bullet)

Itis true that most calibers larger than .32 auto will work for a defensive round, and a lot of clocks have been stopped with 9mm, and .40 S&W, and even smaller rounds. It is also true that if a person is hit in the right spot a .17 pellet will do the trick.

That said, if you take into account the possibility that the high tech hollow point you are using might fail to perform, then bullet diameter clearly moves to the head of the class. For auto shooters that want to shoot a standard round that will be the .45ACP. You can get them anywhere and they work.

I carry a .45 in the cold months (heavy coats and all) and frequently carry a 9MM in the warm months (thinner clothing to penetrate). But these choices are all very personal to each person. That is why arguing over what is best is silly. Each persons needs and abilities are different, so they must decide what is best for them.

Also it is very unlikely that any of us will be called on to shoot our way past 10 or 15 well armed badguys. So all this talk about sustained firefights is a bit over the top for 99% of the people here. You need to have sufficient weapon to create a safe condition around yourself, and take down threats that are in the path of progress to that end.

Now to the question of LEO carry of .45. In fact the FBI HRT owns quite a few double stack .45ACPs. Since this is (reportedly) an elite unit that can afford anything they want including having something custom built (remember where .40S&W came from), I think that pretty much answers the question.

From there it is your choice of bullet design, loadingand bullet weight.

(The opinions expressed are solely the those of the writer, and are not intended to be a recommendation for any particular carry options. Your mileage may vary.)

Regards

Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel · Dec 12, 2008

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Hawkflyer wrote:

Some here have mentioned the FBI study done a while back and the results did conclude that wound channel is where is at as far as stopping human targets. An almost forgotten element of that same study showed that hollow point bullets will almost always fail to perform if they have to penetrate cloth much thicker than the average "t" shirt. (The cloth fills the hollow point and converts the bullet into a round nose ball bullet)

Itis true that most calibers larger than .32 auto will work for a defensive round, and a lot of clocks have been stopped with 9mm, and .40 S&W, and even smaller rounds. It is also true that if a person is hit in the right spot a .17 pellet will do the trick.

That said, if you take into account the possibility that the high tech hollow point you are using might fail to perform, then bullet diameter clearly moves to the head of the class. For auto shooters that want to shoot a standard round that will be the .45ACP. You can get them anywhere and they work.

I carry a .45 in the cold months (heavy coats and all) and frequently carry a 9MM in the warm months (thinner clothing to penetrate). But these choices are all very personal to each person. That is why arguing over what is best is silly. Each persons needs and abilities are different, so they must decide what is best for them.

Also it is very unlikely that any of us will be called on to shoot our way past 10 or 15 well armed badguys. So all this talk about sustained firefights is a bit over the top for 99% of the people here. You need to have sufficient weapon to create a safe condition around yourself, and take down threats that are in the path of progress to that end.

Now to the question of LEO carry of .45. In fact the FBI HRT owns quite a few double stack .45ACPs. Since this is (reportedly) an elite unit that can afford anything they want including having something custom built (remember where .40S&W came from), I think that pretty much answers the question.

From there it is your choice of bullet design, loadingand bullet weight.

(The opinions expressed are solely the those of the writer, and are not intended to be a recommendation for any particular carry options. Your mileage may vary.)

Regards

I agree with everything you said.

I would only add one point. Statistically, about 97% (I have seen this value reported everywhere from about 90% to about 99%, even John Lott uses different values in different articles) of the time a handgun is drawn defensively, the bad guy runs away and it does its intended job, without being fired.

Unless they're crazy, or have a death wish, no one wants to get shot. They may have a bigger gun than you, but they still don't want to get shot and when they see your gun, they know they have a very good chance of being shot so they turn tail and run. (This is especially true of Bad Guys, who are generally cowards who pray on the weak and defenseless and run from the strong and armed.)

In this scenario even the lowly .22 is sufficient, BUT you have to plan for the worst and be ready to shoot and stop the threat.I am NOT advocating that you carry a .22, but if that is what you have and you carry it, then it is a lot better than throwing rocks.

Best self defense ammo??

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