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Thread: OC catch 22

  1. #1
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    According to my research it is legal to OC in Michigan. However the problem lies in transportation.

    The Michigan concealed weapons statute (MCL 750.227(2)) makes it illegal to transport a pistol anywhere in a vehicle unless the person is licensed to carry a concealed pistol. Exceptions can be found in MCL 750.231a, which allows transportation of pistols for a “lawful purpose.” A lawful purpose is defined as going to or from any one of the following:
    􀂃 A hunting or target area
    􀂃 A place of repair
    􀂃 Moving goods from a home or business to another home or business
    􀂃 A law enforcement agency (for a safety inspection or to turn the pistol over to the agency)
    􀂃 A gun show or place of sale or purchase
    􀂃 A public shooting facility
    􀂃 Public land where shooting is legal
    􀂃 Private property where a pistol may be lawfully used

    So unless your going directly to one of these places you could have a real problem?

  2. #2
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    wardog6d wrote:
    According to my research it is legal to OC in Michigan. However the problem lies in transportation.

    The Michigan concealed weapons statute (MCL 750.227(2)) makes it illegal to transport a pistol anywhere in a vehicle unless the person is licensed to carry a concealed pistol. Exceptions can be found in MCL 750.231a, which allows transportation of pistols for a “lawful purpose.” A lawful purpose is defined as going to or from any one of the following:
    􀂃 A hunting or target area
    􀂃 A place of repair
    􀂃 Moving goods from a home or business to another home or business
    􀂃 A law enforcement agency (for a safety inspection or to turn the pistol over to the agency)
    􀂃 A gun show or place of sale or purchase
    􀂃 A public shooting facility
    􀂃 Public land where shooting is legal
    􀂃 Private property where a pistol may be lawfully used

    So unless your going directly to one of these places you could have a real problem?
    You should reread MCL 750.231a. It makes no definition of "lawful purpose", but instead list some inclusions.



    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931 ***** 750.231a THIS SECTION IS AMENDED EFFECTIVE JANUARY 7, 2009: See 750.231a.amended *****


    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
    Sec. 231a.
    (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
    (b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.
    (c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.
    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.
    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
    (2) As used in this section:
    (a) “Antique firearm” means either of the following:
    (i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.
    (ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
    (b) “Lawful purpose” includes the following:
    (i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
    (ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.
    (iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.
    (iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed on the pistol as is required by section 9 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.429, or for the purpose of having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon.
    (v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or sale.
    (vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.
    (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.


  3. #3
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    Cool cool thanks...

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    wardog6d wrote:
    Cool cool thanks...
    Mind you. That does not mean that some LEO and prosecutors won't say otherwise. I've heard some officers state that it is defined by law, and it also says so on the MSP website (although Sgt. Deasy says otherwise).

  5. #5
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    wardog6d wrote:
    According to my research it is legal to OC in Michigan. However the problem lies in transportation.

    The Michigan concealed weapons statute (MCL 750.227(2)) makes it illegal to transport a pistol anywhere in a vehicle unless the person is licensed to carry a concealed pistol. Exceptions can be found in MCL 750.231a, which allows transportation of pistols for a “lawful purpose.” A lawful purpose is defined as going to or from any one of the following:
    􀂃 A hunting or target area
    􀂃 A place of repair
    􀂃 Moving goods from a home or business to another home or business
    􀂃 A law enforcement agency (for a safety inspection or to turn the pistol over to the agency)
    􀂃 A gun show or place of sale or purchase
    􀂃 A public shooting facility
    􀂃 Public land where shooting is legal
    􀂃 Private property where a pistol may be lawfully used

    So unless your going directly to one of these places you could have a real problem?

    There is some confusion and I'm working with a State Representative on getting an AG opinion on this. The two questions are below.

    Generally the confusion in this statute is two fold. First 750.227(2) Sec. 231a (2) b states “Lawful purpose” includes the following: [/b]The first confusion is that many law enforcement agencies define this to mean that these are the only lawful purpose allowed while transporting a lawful handgun. The Michigan State Police (MSP) interprets this to mean a few examples of some lawful purposes but is in no way the only lawful purposes*. Since the term “includes” is used the MSP interpretation is closest to the laws intent, as “includes” is defined to mean a partial list or a portion of a whole. Because of the disparity of interpretations arrests have been made for violating this statute when an officer believes some one has transported a handgun for a lawful purpose that fell outside of the examples given.

    The Cambridge dictionary defines “includes” as a verb; To contain something as a part of something else, or to make something part of something else:[/b][/b]
    [/b]
    [/b]The second area of confusion is the term “en route”.[/b] Some law enforcement agencies define this to mean a straight line to and from a destination with no detours or other stops between destinations. That is, straight from your home to a destination and straight back with no diversions. Other departments (MSP) have defined “en route” to mean the trip in it’s entirety and allows for many stops in the travel. Some Law enforcement officers have made arrests when it was found that a person deviated from a straight line, back and forth trip.

    Attorney Jim Simmons opines in an email on the website migunowners.org at 10:27 AM 12/2/08:

    “A number of LEOs have interpreted "en route" to mean the most direct route, without stops (maybe for gas?). That came from driver's license restrictions for drunk driving convictions, where a person could drive "to and from" home and work, school, AA, etc. It was abused enough that LEOs and probation officers enforced (and judges upheld) a direct route/no stops interpretation. It hasn't been rejected, as far as I know, by any judge.”


    The Cambridge dictionary defines “en route” as an adverb; On the way to or from somewhere.[/b][/b]
    [/b][/b]The American Dictionary define “en route” as an adverb or adjective; On or along the way.
    [/b]
    [/b][/b]* Personal conversation with Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, 714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823 (517) 336-6441

    Question: Does the term “includes” when used in the statute mean some examples or does it mean all inclusive?

    Question 2: Does the term “en route” mean a straight line or does it mean the travel in it’s entirety and doesn’t necessarily mean directly back and forth?



    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  6. #6
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    wardog6d wrote:
    However the problem lies in transportation.
    It does indeed. The gun laws in this state are out of hand. Could you put a price on safety in a car? Well the state did. A CPL class and a tax for a constitutionally guaranteed right. :X
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    So excuse my confusion with the legal wordage used in this thread but I have been looking into opne carry and this is quite the big question i need an answer on. I do NOT have a CPL. How can I legally transport my pistol in a vehicle (particularly a pickup which doesnt have a trunk obviously) and where I have to uncase and load it to open carry?

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    Mikecatt13 wrote:
    So excuse my confusion with the legal wordage used in this thread but I have been looking into opne carry and this is quite the big question i need an answer on. I do NOT have a CPL. How can I legally transport my pistol in a vehicle (particularly a pickup which doesnt have a trunk obviously) and where I have to uncase and load it to open carry?
    Everywhere I go (As I don't have a CPL either) I have to unload/lock up my gun every time I get in my car, and load and holster when I get to where I'm going. I try to do it when there aren't tons of people around, but that can't always be helped.

  9. #9
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Wardog6d,

    I think the following section is most applicable to your situation (I am not a lawyer). Please remember that, because the definition is very open to interpretation, the "not readily accessable" should almost be "darn near impossible to get at without stopping the truck, getting out, and taking about another 10 minutes to extract the encased weapon" (on the other hand, from what I have seen looking at some court decisions, even that might be too "accessable")

    Just consider "what would a po'd P.O. think if he/she came up to me while getting my pistol out of the vehicle" and you should be ok.

    MCL750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.

    e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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