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Thread: Good OC experience...avoided confrontation

  1. #1
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    It wasn't too cool out, so I had my jacket unzipped, and was carrying IWB at 1:00, so it was only visible from directly in front of me.

    I was coming out of Walmart at Parham and Brook the other day when I noticed a guy trailing about 10 paces behind me. I kept an eye on him as I walked to my car, but he either didn't know I knew he was there or didn't care.

    I was parked to my right, facing left, so I unlocked the passenger side door before I got to the car and wheeled the cart around and opened the passenger door to place it between me and Mr. Shadow.

    While I had the car door and shopping cart between he and I, he caught up and walked to the front of the car and started to ask if I could help him out.

    He was about 10 feet away when I moved out from behind the door a bit and started to tell him "not today." I hadn't had a chance to get the words out of my mouth when I saw him glance down to my waist and he immediately turned and walked away at a brisk pace.

    I can't say for sure he would have pushed the issue if he hadn't noticed the gun, but it was nice to not have to engage in any smalltalk.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Score 1-0 favor of OC!

    No hits, no runs, no errors.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    In the summer of '07. I was approached by a rather scraggly looking guy in a strip mall parking lot in Manassas. I was putting my purchase in my trunk and my strong side was not fully visible to him. He asked me if I could help him out with few dollars and as I turned to face him, he saw my little friend. He took a step back and asked if I was an LEO to which I told him I wasn't. I handed him some change and he thanked me and left. I had wondered afterward if he would have become verbally aggressive with just change had he not seen my weapon.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    You bring up a good point. I don't mind giving to those in need, but there's a right and wrong way to go about asking for help.

    Walking up directly and announcing your presence and intentions are one thing, and in that case, I may have kept the firearm out of sight and even given him something as I often do.

    However, this guy was deliberatly following me and attempted to stay outside of my field of view. That started the whole interaction off on the wrong foot, as in, instead of a guy needing some change (which it didn't look like he really needed), he came off as someone that I should cut contact with as soon as possible. Regardless of his true intentions, his actions immediately placed him in the "do not interact" category.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I do not tolerate panhandlers (if that is what they are) approaching me especially in parking lots/decks. I've already had two potentially bad experiences with such aggressive individuals: one decided he had chosen the wrong place and time, the other was selected to reside as a guest of the city.

    I also don't give cigarettes to moochers, ask for help in loading my purchases or otherwise give up my circle of influence/safety zone willingly.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    I make it a practice not to give to panhandlers, but last summer, on a very hot day in Richmond, a panhandler came up to me and said "Can you spare a buck or two? I'm not gonna lie to you; I want to get a nice cold beer". I told him his honesty was so refreshing that I would certainly give him some beer money.

    I know, I know, not related to OC. FWIW, I was CC'ing that day.

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    I do not tolerate panhandlers/bums either. I donate to reputable charities. I'd rather my money go to something helpful rather than giving them money to buy drugs or alcohol.

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    bnkrazy wrote:
    While I had the car door and shopping cart between he and I, he caught up and walked to the front of the car and started to ask if I could help him out.

    He was about 10 feet away when I moved out from behind the door a bit and started to tell him "not today." I hadn't had a chance to get the words out of my mouth when I saw him glance down to my waist and he immediately turned and walked away at a brisk pace.

    I can't say for sure he would have pushed the issue if he hadn't noticed the gun, but it was nice to not have to engage in any smalltalk.
    Do you have a nice car? The fact that he didn't look destitute makes this encounter even more ominous. Perhaps he wanted to car jack you.

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    I have an '08 Mazda 6. I suppose that is a possibility. In all honesty Iwould've given him the car in that case. That's why I have insurance...and I really like the looks of the '09.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    My car is far more important than his immediate happiness. If someone is going to carjack you, they are pretty much going to have to commit robbery to do it. By definition, robbery is theft through the use of or implication of force to commit the act. This, in itself, is frequently cause enough for the victim to use deadly force to counter the attack. Let's face it. If someone comes up to you and says "gimme your keys" and has nothing to back up his demand, are you going to do it? Most likely, no.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    mpolo79 wrote:
    bnkrazy wrote:
    While I had the car door and shopping cart between he and I, he caught up and walked to the front of the car and started to ask if I could help him out.

    He was about 10 feet away when I moved out from behind the door a bit and started to tell him "not today." I hadn't had a chance to get the words out of my mouth when I saw him glance down to my waist and he immediately turned and walked away at a brisk pace.

    I can't say for sure he would have pushed the issue if he hadn't noticed the gun, but it was nice to not have to engage in any smalltalk.
    Do you have a nice car? The fact that he didn't look destitute makes this encounter even more ominous. Perhaps he wanted to car jack you.
    mpolo lets not jump to conclusions ok??

    Not everybody who is destitute or homeless have to look like they just crawled out of the trashcan or have really bad clothing with holes or whatnot.

    I used to be homeless on two occasions, each for approximately 6 months and yes I did panhandle from time to time.

    I know a lot of people use it for drugs and alcohol, another homeless guy at the shelter I was staying at spent the money he made panhandling to buy lottery tickets.

    But anyway this is getting off-topic, I lived at the Sally Ann homeless shelter at one time which in normalspeak is the Salvation Army, I was homeless but I always wore a suit and a bowler hat as that was the only clothing I owned and I didn't feel comfortable dressing in jeans and a tshirt so I could have walked by you on the street and you would never have known.

    Yes it is possible that this person could have been trying to carjack bnkrazy but not looking homeless doesn't have to equate to not being homeless if you understand what I mean.

    Let me tell you a story about one time I was panhandling.

    I was sitting on a pedestrian-only street and next to me was a friend of mine who was around 17, I was in my early 20's then, I was sitting there with him in my suit and the cops walked by and told us that we couldn't sit there and asked us to move and we could come back in 10-15 mins when they had finished their walk of the area.

    One of the cops looked at me in my suit and bowler hat and he asked me if I was homeless, I told him yep and that I lived at the Sally Ann and he exclaimed "Wow, you are the best dressed homeless person I have ever seen and that he really loved the bowler hat that I wore because it fit my whole outfit perfectly.

    So a person can look like a million bucks but still need to ask for money from time to time, some areas don't have a good shelter system, some shelters demand that you pay a fee each night for staying there and in return you get a small room with a bed where you can sleep and have your things and a lock on your door to keep you safe because some of the homeless shelters can be very violent and dangerous.

    Some people are just too proud to live in a homeless shelter so they would rather sleep under overpasses and other nooks and crannies then ask for help in a shelter.

    While living at the Salvation Army we got a voucher for around $20 so we could walk to the Salvation Army Thrift Store and get some clothing or shoes or books if we didn't need more clothing and I am very lucky to be staying there as that was the most non-violent shelter of them all in the city where I was, though2weeksafterI moved out I heard from a person I used to know from the streets that somebody inside the shelter had been stabbed so I guess I was lucky to move out when I did.

    But to make a long story short, I was very lucky that the city I was living in had a good shelter system, that they helped you out with clothing and stuff and that where I was living was pretty non-violent.

    To end let me just tell you how I was as a person while living on the streets.

    I was living in a homeless shelter almost downtown so there so I went to the art museum which was free and I also went to Chapters to read books but every day from around 10 AM until around 2 PM I was working as a volunteer at a soupkitchen to help other people who were in the same situation as me and so that I could give something back to the community instead of just drift around doing nothing productive that could help others because there wasn't much to do and that was free except for the museum and Chapters so I decided that the soupkitchen would be where I could be of the most service to others.

    So a person walking up to you asking for money is not a big issue if they act normal and don't try to sneak up but as in bnkrazy's situation where the guy tried to keep out of his field of vision and was trailing him that would even get my back up that something was very wrong and I would stand at the car with the shopping cart between me and the other person but on the side of it that he could see the gun if I was carrying because as we all know that can be a huge deterrent in cases like this.

    But just thinking that the guy is trying to carjack you because he doesn't look homeless is like methinking that an african-american friend of mine is a thug because he wears Fubu and baggypants but the guy is actually an amazing intellectual and a poet who studies Social Science at University and who wants to help people in the ghetto where he lives and he just feels comfortable in wearing that outfit and he goes all out when he dresses just like me but we should never stereotype people for the colour of their skin, for their sexuality, for their gender, for the clothes that they wear or their status in life, in my honest opinion, to do that just shows complete and utter ignorance but that is just my view though.

    Sorry for the long post but I just had to say my peace.

    And bnkrazy I am happy that nothing happened and I am also happy to see that your situational awareness skills are working perfectly. =o)

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    My car is far more important than his immediate happiness. If someone is going to carjack you, they are pretty much going to have to commit robbery to do it. By definition, robbery is theft through the use of or implication of force to commit the act. This, in itself, is frequently cause enough for the victim to use deadly force to counter the attack. Let's face it. If someone comes up to you and says "gimme your keys" and has nothing to back up his demand, are you going to do it? Most likely, no.
    You're right, any confrontation that involves my being forced to hand over the keys to my car probably would constitute a deadly-force situation. It's not like I'll just hand the keys over to anyone that walks up, unless they've shown themselves to be a threat in the event that I do not cooperate. I wonder if refusing to provide them the keys would be viewed as instigating/being a party to the confrontation rendering self-defense not an option.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    bnkrazy wrote:
    You're right, any confrontation that involves my being forced to hand over the keys to my car probably would constitute a deadly-force situation. It's not like I'll just hand the keys over to anyone that walks up, unless they've shown themselves to be a threat in the event that I do not cooperate. I wonder if refusing to provide them the keys would be viewed as instigating/being a party to the confrontation rendering self-defense not an option.
    Not until refusing to be a victim is a criminal act :shock: - oh ya, there are already some places in the world where this is precisely the case.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    bnkrazy wrote:
    You're right, any confrontation that involves my being forced to hand over the keys to my car probably would constitute a deadly-force situation. It's not like I'll just hand the keys over to anyone that walks up, unless they've shown themselves to be a threat in the event that I do not cooperate. I wonder if refusing to provide them the keys would be viewed as instigating/being a party to the confrontation rendering self-defense not an option.
    Not until refusing to be a victim is a criminal act :shock: - oh ya, there are already some places in the world where this is precisely the case.

    Yata hey
    Yeah crazy, eh?

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  15. #15
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    bnkrazy wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    My car is far more important than his immediate happiness. If someone is going to carjack you, they are pretty much going to have to commit robbery to do it. By definition, robbery is theft through the use of or implication of force to commit the act. This, in itself, is frequently cause enough for the victim to use deadly force to counter the attack. Let's face it. If someone comes up to you and says "gimme your keys" and has nothing to back up his demand, are you going to do it? Most likely, no.
    You're right, any confrontation that involves my being forced to hand over the keys to my car probably would constitute a deadly-force situation. It's not like I'll just hand the keys over to anyone that walks up, unless they've shown themselves to be a threat in the event that I do not cooperate. I wonder if refusing to provide them the keys would be viewed as instigating/being a party to the confrontation rendering self-defense not an option.
    It's pretty hard to imagine someone just coming up to you in a parking lot and asking or demanding your keys without some sort of implied or actual threat of violence. And not giving them to him could in no way, constitute an escalation of hostilities on the victim's part. There is an axiom in Old English Common Law which states that a criminal shall not profit from his actions (paraphrased of course). Granted we do hear of criminals profiting all of the time. Lawsuits anyone?

    So if someone were to approach you and demand your keys, probably the only way in which you are going to comply is if there is an imminent threat presented, either actual, he's holding a weapon, or implied, there are four of them facing you in a menacing manner. In either case, you would be justified to use deadly force to protect yourself. I'm no lawyer, but this is what I have been told in training and what I have viewed on tapes from lawyers regarding this topic.

    Just remember: proximity, means, intent.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    bnkrazy wrote:
    You're right, any confrontation that involves my being forced to hand over the keys to my car probably would constitute a deadly-force situation. It's not like I'll just hand the keys over to anyone that walks up, unless they've shown themselves to be a threat in the event that I do not cooperate. I wonder if refusing to provide them the keys would be viewed as instigating/being a party to the confrontation rendering self-defense not an option.
    Not until refusing to be a victim is a criminal act :shock: - oh ya, there are already some places in the world where this is precisely the case.

    Yata hey
    Yeah like here in Canada, a guy in BC was a victim of a home invasion, they were armed to my knowledge and he shot and killed one of them as he was a"registered gunowner" (I really hate that word), cops came and arrested him and he was charged with murder/manslaughter and the jury actually convicted him to my knowledge.

    So the moral here in Canada is that if you refuse to be a victim and you defend your life then you can be put in jail because of it.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Sleepless wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    bnkrazy wrote:
    You're right, any confrontation that involves my being forced to hand over the keys to my car probably would constitute a deadly-force situation. It's not like I'll just hand the keys over to anyone that walks up, unless they've shown themselves to be a threat in the event that I do not cooperate. I wonder if refusing to provide them the keys would be viewed as instigating/being a party to the confrontation rendering self-defense not an option.
    Not until refusing to be a victim is a criminal act :shock: - oh ya, there are already some places in the world where this is precisely the case.

    Yata hey
    Yeah like here in Canada, a guy in BC was a victim of a home invasion, they were armed to my knowledge and he shot and killed one of them as he was a"registered gunowner" (I really hate that word), cops came and arrested him and he was charged with murder/manslaughter and the jury actually convicted him to my knowledge.

    So the moral here in Canada is that if you refuse to be a victim and you defend your life then you can be put in jail because of it.
    Cite?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Sleepless wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    bnkrazy wrote:
    You're right, any confrontation that involves my being forced to hand over the keys to my car probably would constitute a deadly-force situation. It's not like I'll just hand the keys over to anyone that walks up, unless they've shown themselves to be a threat in the event that I do not cooperate. I wonder if refusing to provide them the keys would be viewed as instigating/being a party to the confrontation rendering self-defense not an option.
    Not until refusing to be a victim is a criminal act :shock: - oh ya, there are already some places in the world where this is precisely the case.

    Yata hey
    Yeah like here in Canada, a guy in BC was a victim of a home invasion, they were armed to my knowledge and he shot and killed one of them as he was a"registered gunowner" (I really hate that word), cops came and arrested him and he was charged with murder/manslaughter and the jury actually convicted him to my knowledge.

    So the moral here in Canada is that if you refuse to be a victim and you defend your life then you can be put in jail because of it.
    Cite?

    Yata hey
    I will try to find it tomorrow because I am so tired right now that my brain doesn't work.

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