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  1. #1
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    By Matthew Bowers
    Michelle Washington
    The Virginian-Pilot
    © December 4, 2008 NORFOLK
    Three city police officers - two active, one recently resigned - were indicted Wednesday on charges they lied in court testimony or on police reports in two incidents.
    Additional "serious allegations" concerning other incidents are under legal review, police Chief Bruce P. Marquis said. He declined to say whether different officers were involved.
    Those indicted:
    - Gregory W. Dudley, 24, of the 4900 block of Rugby St. in Virginia Beach was charged with procuring another to give false testimony - a felony - and making a false report to police - a misdemeanor - on Oct. 12. The indictments allege that he induced another to give false testimony under oath and that he gave a false report to a law enforcement official about a crime. He resigned Oct. 31, after two years as a patrol officer.
    - Andrew Todd Wenzel, 29, of the 4600 block of Captain Carter Drive in Chesapeake was charged with two counts of perjury - a felony - and making a false report to police. The indictments allege that Wenzel gave false testimony while under oath in General District Court in September 2007 and in Circuit Court in April.
    - Robert A. Jacobs, 28, of Norfolk, was charged with obstruction of justice - a misdemeanor. His indictment says he made a false statement to a law enforcement officer on Sept. 17 while the officer was investigating a crime committed by someone else.
    Jacobs and Wenzel are three-year patrolmen. The three men turned themselves in Wednesday and were released on their own recognizance pending trials. Marquis said he suspended Wenzel and Jacobs with pay and took their police identification and weapons, pending the outcome of their trials and of departmental administrative proceedings.
    They had been on desk duty while the department investigated allegations that came to light recently, Marquis said. The police findings were forwarded to the commonwealth's attorney's office, Marquis said. He would not elaborate.
    "We take these matters very seriously over here," the chief said.
    Michael McKenna, president of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers Local 412, blamed Wednesday's indictments in part on a lack of seniority and reduced hiring standards, as veteran officers leave the department seeking better pay.
    "We're left now with 70, 80 percent of people with under five years" of experience, McKenna said. "... They're good guys, but they don't know what they're doing."
    Mayor Paul Fraim expressed confidence in the force. "I do know that our hiring practices are as good as they are anywhere in the commonwealth," he said.
    He added that all police officers are subject to background checks, a polygraph test and psychological tests.
    Fraim spoke after he emerged from a 70-minute emergency City Council meeting Wednesday evening in which Marquis, City Manager Regina V.K. Williams and Fraim briefed the council members on the issue. All but Fraim declined to comment.
    While stressing that "these are only allegations," Fraim nonetheless acknowledged that Marquis and Williams need to ensure that the incidents were isolated.
    "This is a very difficult moment for us," he said. "We're all concerned about the implications of police misconduct.
    "At the same time," he added, "we believe these are separate incidents, that this is not a cultural issue with the department. We are very proud of the Norfolk police."
    Williams and Fraim expressed confidence in Marquis.
    Marquis said he did not know whether the charges would affect ongoing cases.
    Marquis said that since the allegations were raised, senior officers have re-emphasized officers' training in integrity and accuracy in note-taking. A January training session has been revised to focus more on ethics and note-taking for legal matters, and the commonwealth's attorney's office will offer refreshers in laws concerning arrests, searches and the rules of evidence.
    "We are held to a higher standard," Marquis said. "And acts like this can do harm to the Police Department. And we must be on our best behavior at all times."
    Defense lawyers said the indictments could affect a number of cases in which the officers testified or are scheduled to testify.
    Attorney George Neskis said any case in which an officer is charged "opens a Pandora's box for the prosecution." It also means defense lawyers may seek review in cases in which clients had already been convicted based on the indicted officers' testimony.
    Sherri Carr, the city's chief public defender, said that if the indicted officers were to testify, defense lawyers could use the indictments to challenge their credibility.
    "I have a feeling there may be more at the gate," Carr said. "The commonwealth will have to look at the other cases and determine whether they will go forward."
    Amanda Howie, the commonwealth's attorney's spokeswoman, said prosecutors will deal with cases in which the indicted officers are witnesses as they come up. She did not estimate how many cases that would be.
    Howie said she could not reveal how the allegations came to light nor could she give the nature of the underlying court cases involved.
    The charges stem from separate matters, she said, with Wenzel and Jacobs involved in one incident and Dudley involved in another.
    The commonwealth's attorney's office sought the indictments after receiving information from the police detective division, she said.
    Defense la wyer Peter Decker III said he knows all three of the officers indicted and considers them "real good guys."
    "I don't see them putting their careers at risk to get a conviction," Decker said. "I don't think they'd ever intentionally do something wrong."
    Pilot writer Harry Minium contributed to this report.
    Matthew Bowers, (757) 222-3893, matthew.bowers@pilotonline.com
    Michelle Washington, (757) 446-2287, michelle.washington@pilotonline.com

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Is this possible? In Norfolk? Do I dare hope that one of these officers was near Hooters and had a partially recorded conversation with Danbus? It is nearing Christmas but this is probably too much to ask of Santa.

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    A test psychological, polygraph or background that fails no one is hardly a test. What is the pass/fail rate and is it objective? How did it miss these Law Enforcement Officers?

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    A test psychological, polygraph or background that fails no one is hardly a test.* What is the pass/fail rate and is it objective?* How did it miss these Law Enforcement Officers?
    Nothings 100%. Just because you have a clear backround doesn't mean you are a saint. Just because your psych and poly were passed at the time of the test doesn't mean you can't change after a couple years. It's called being a human being Dougie, try it sometime.

    I would still rather have my police officers go through the above tests than not, obviously. What do you think the answer to this is Doug?

    Furthermore, I don't see how this has anything to do with "open carry". More than that, these officers haven't been convicted and the story doesn't even mentioned what the story was behind the charges.

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    nitrovic wrote:
    It's called being a human being Dougie, try it sometime. Quote of the year!
    Furthermore, I don't see how this has anything to do with "open carry". More than that, these officers haven't been convicted and the story doesn't even mentioned what the story was behind the charges.+1 This is just another one of the anti-LEO posts that often run rampant on this board. While one could possibly s t r e t c h this story and try to equate it to Danbus's situation, it is a hugereach and has no place here.
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    OK, I'll bring the OC component to this. Several people have been harassed or arrested in Norfolk for open carry. Were any of these indicted officers involved in the harassment or arrest of law abiding OC'ers?
    ---

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    rlh2005 wrote:
    OK, I'll bring the OC component to this. Several people have been harassed or arrested in Norfolk for open carry. Were any of these indicted officers involved in the harassment or arrest of law abiding OC'ers?
    Said similar above. I want my candy cane early.

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    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/19119.html

    talks about the same thing.. a little less "meat" in the story.. but i dont see why we would need a new topic about it

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    rlh2005 wrote:
    OK, I'll bring the OC component to this.* Several people have been harassed or arrested in Norfolk for open carry.* Were any of these indicted officers involved in the harassment or arrest of law abiding OC'ers?
    If these officers were charged with some type of OC related charge, then yeah, I would say it deserves to be in the Virginia OC forum. However, if the story simply involves police officers, then just about any story (vehicle accidents police respond to, missing children, various larcenies etc) should be allowed on the forum. To include pro police stories (GASP!!!).

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    ProShooter wrote:
    nitrovic wrote:
    It's called being a human being Dougie, try it sometime.* Quote of the year!
    Furthermore, I don't see how this has anything to do with "open carry". More than that, these officers haven't been convicted and the story doesn't even mentioned what the story was behind the charges.*+1 This is just another one of the anti-LEO posts that often run rampant on this board.* While one could possibly s t r e t c h this story and try to equate it to Danbus's situation, it is a huge*reach and has no place here.
    Finally, somebody with some common sense. I agree 100%.

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    nitrovic wrote:
    Furthermore, I don't see how this has anything to do with "open carry". More than that, these officers haven't been convicted and the story doesn't even mentioned what the story was behind the charges.
    Agreed. This post was not about open carry. Perhaps you should tell Chkultr, the author of this thread? Why are you bitching at Doug for replying? Or is this more about a personal problem with Doug and less about the thread being off-topic?

    Disagree. The story DID say what the charges were about: perjury, lies, deceit. And not just any type of perjury, the type committed by an officer of the law. Someone judges take for their honest word when they testify in court. And let's not forget, when an officer gets into trouble, it's nearly impossible for the press to get the whole story, because well... those records arenot available due to the crime, investigation (and punishment) being a "personnel matter" handled internally by the department.
    The indictments allege that he induced another to give false testimony under oath and that he gave a false report to a law enforcement official about a crime.

    The indictments allege that Wenzel gave false testimony while under oath in General District Court in September 2007 and in Circuit Court in April.

    His indictment says he made a false statement to a law enforcement officer on Sept. 17 while the officer was investigating a crime committed by someone else.
    I love how the union leader makes excuses for the suspects:

    Michael McKenna, president of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers Local 412, blamed Wednesday's indictments in part on a lack of seniority and reduced hiring standards, as veteran officers leave the department seeking better pay. "We're left now with 70, 80 percent of people with under five years" of experience, McKenna said. "... They're good guys, but they don't know what they're doing."
    So, the suspected criminal activity now has a cause, lack of seniority and lax hiring standards according the the union pres. I fail to see how telling the truth in a court of law hinges upon hiring standards and seniority at the workplace. Way to go, McKenna. I'll use that defense in court next time I purger myself.

    And let's cut the "OCDO is anti-LEO" crap altogether. I bitch about taxi drivers and their bad driving habits all the time.Does this make me "anti-taxi"? Do I hate ALL taxi drivers because a few can't drive correctly? What about the other people I complain about... Do I hate all of them too?

    Some folks have had bad experiences with cops, some have bad drive thru service. The difference being, whenthey have a bad experience at Burger King,they find a manager and he makes things "right". Whenthey have a bad experience with a LEO,they get told to shut the eff up or they face arrest for DC, impeding an investigation, or any of the many other "tools" police use to induce compliance, even if they are wrong or confused about the law they are enforcing. Being told to "shut the eff up or you're going into the back of my car" does not help foster good citizen/LEO relations, right?

    You guys (LEO's) are grown ups and supposed to be community models. Please act like ones and quit complaining whenever a negative LEO thread comes up. It's not like I log into officer.com and complain about the rude disrespectful things that are said on YOUR forums about YOUR interactions with Joe Q. Citizen.

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    And let's cut the "OCDO is anti-LEO" crap altogether. I bitch about taxi drivers and their bad driving habits all the time.Does this make me "anti-taxi"? Do I hate ALL taxi drivers because a few can't drive correctly? What about the other people I complain about... Do I hate all of them too?

    Some folks have had bad experiences with cops, some have bad drive thru service. The difference being, whenthey have a bad experience at Burger King,they find a manager and he makes things "right". Whenthey have a bad experience with a LEO,they get told to shut the eff up or they face arrest for DC, impeding an investigation, or any of the many other "tools" police use to induce compliance, even if they are wrong or confused about the law they are enforcing. Being told to "shut the eff up or you're going into the back of my car" does not help foster good citizen/LEO relations, right?

    You guys (LEO's) are grown ups and supposed to be community models. Please act like ones and quit complaining whenever a negative LEO thread comes up. It's not like I log into officer.com and complain about the rude disrespectful things that are said on YOUR forums about YOUR interactions with Joe Q. Citizen.

    If someone has a bad experience with a LEO in relation to lawfully carrying their firearm, feel free to post it. If someone has a bad experience with a restaurantmanager or store owner in relation to lawfully carrying their firearm, feel free to post it.

    If you got bad service at McDonalds or want to relate a news story about a dirty cop busted for illegal activity, and neither has anything to do with OC or firearms....take your rant to Craigslist.

    just my 2 pennies....

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    nitrovic wrote:
    Furthermore, I don't see how this has anything to do with "open carry". More than that, these officers haven't been convicted and the story doesn't even mentioned what the story was behind the charges.
    Agreed. This post was not about open carry. Perhaps you should tell Chkultr, the author of this thread? Why are you bitching at Doug for replying? Or is this more about a personal problem with Doug and less about the thread being off-topic?

    Disagree. The story DID say what the charges were about: perjury, lies, deceit. And not just any type of perjury, the type committed by an officer of the law. Someone judges take for their honest word when they testify in court. And let's not forget, when an officer gets into trouble, it's nearly impossible for the press to get the whole story, because well... those records are*not available due to the crime, investigation (and punishment) being a "personnel matter" handled internally by the department. *
    The indictments allege that he induced another to give false testimony under oath and that he gave a false report to a law enforcement official about a crime.

    The indictments allege that Wenzel gave false testimony while under oath in General District Court in September 2007 and in Circuit Court in April.

    His indictment says he made a false statement to a law enforcement officer on Sept. 17 while the officer was investigating a crime committed by someone else.
    I love how the union leader makes excuses for the suspects:

    Michael McKenna, president of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers Local 412, blamed Wednesday's indictments in part on a lack of seniority and reduced hiring standards, as veteran officers leave the department seeking better pay. "We're left now with 70, 80 percent of people with under five years" of experience, McKenna said. "... They're good guys, but they don't know what they're doing."
    So, the suspected criminal activity now has a cause, lack of seniority and lax hiring standards according the the union pres. I fail to see how telling the truth in a court of law hinges upon hiring standards and seniority at the workplace. Way to go, McKenna. I'll use that defense in court next time I purger myself.

    And let's cut the "OCDO is anti-LEO" crap altogether. I bitch about taxi drivers and their bad driving habits all the time.*Does this make me "anti-taxi"? Do I hate ALL taxi drivers because a few can't drive correctly? What about the other people I complain about... Do I hate all of them too?

    Some folks have had bad experiences with cops, some have bad drive thru service. The difference being, when*they have a bad experience at Burger King,*they find a manager and he makes things "right". When*they have a bad experience with a LEO,*they get told to shut the eff up or they face arrest for DC, impeding an investigation, or any of the many other "tools" police use to induce compliance, even if they are wrong or confused about the law they are enforcing. Being told to "shut the eff up or you're going into the back of my car" does not help foster good citizen/LEO relations, right?

    You guys (LEO's) are grown ups and supposed to be community models. Please act like ones and quit complaining whenever a negative LEO thread comes up. It's not like I log into officer.com and complain about the rude disrespectful things that are said on YOUR forums about YOUR interactions with Joe Q. Citizen.
    The fact remains, it's against forum rules. This has nothing to do with opencarry. I have never told anybody to "shut the eff up and get into my car", nor have I hear it from other officers. Again, that has nothing to do with opencarry. Just the old tried and true cop bashing that happens here. This has nothing to do with officer.com, yet it does show me where you are coming from. Leave your personal feelings out of it, this has nothing to do with OC.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Well here is a pile of steaming crap to step in, so I will.

    We currently have at least one member of this forum who is also a VCDL member under charges in Virginia beach Norfolk area. These Officers are from the same police force that has arrested that member on more than one occasion for simply carrying a firearm lawfully.

    Having three Officers brought up on charges of lying is the kind of thing that does not occur in a vacuum. If the response from the union and department leadership is true and correct then there is a systemic problem that may pervade a large part of that department. But here is the nub of the issue. These three officers did not tell their lies outside the sight of their fellow officers. Someone has been looking the other way for these guys for a long time. As a person in Law enforcement myself, there is no way to avoid the stain from the broad brush that must be used to paint the true picture of the damage these officers have done to the LEO professional image.

    There is no question that these officers have brought into question any actions they may have taken personally in the past, but they also bring into question any action taken by that department. That includes the arrest of VCDL activist members and members of this forum who have been harassed while lawfully exercising their rights under the law.

    While it is true that we only have one side of the many stories coming from that part of Virginia concerning harassment of citizens carrying firearms in the open, there can be no question that the harassment is occurring. That harassment is being carried our systematically by the same department that is the source of this current story. So there may well be a connection between the discovery of a pocket of LEO's caught and charged with lying, perjury, and falsification, and the harassment of citizens open carrying a firearm.

    I do not think that speculation concerning the possible involvement of these particular officers in the incidents we are aware of is out of bounds for this forum. The context of the thread was in just that line of presentation.

    As a member of this form that recognizes LEOs are regularly but sometimes unjustly slammed on this forum, I also can recognize when the actions of officers SHOULD come under critical scrutiny, and this is one of those times. If these three officers are guilty as charged, they will have given every LEO in the United States a Black eye. I for one have no problem discussing their actions, and I have no problem seeing the connection with OC on this forum. But I also am not ready to convict them without a fair hearing. Lets all just wait and see how far this thing goes.
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    nitrovic wrote:
    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    nitrovic wrote:
    Furthermore, I don't see how this has anything to do with "open carry". More than that, these officers haven't been convicted and the story doesn't even mentioned what the story was behind the charges.
    Agreed. This post was not about open carry. Perhaps you should tell Chkultr, the author of this thread? Why are you bitching at Doug for replying? Or is this more about a personal problem with Doug and less about the thread being off-topic?

    Disagree. The story DID say what the charges were about: perjury, lies, deceit. And not just any type of perjury, the type committed by an officer of the law. Someone judges take for their honest word when they testify in court. And let's not forget, when an officer gets into trouble, it's nearly impossible for the press to get the whole story, because well... those records arenot available due to the crime, investigation (and punishment) being a "personnel matter" handled internally by the department.
    The indictments allege that he induced another to give false testimony under oath and that he gave a false report to a law enforcement official about a crime.

    The indictments allege that Wenzel gave false testimony while under oath in General District Court in September 2007 and in Circuit Court in April.

    His indictment says he made a false statement to a law enforcement officer on Sept. 17 while the officer was investigating a crime committed by someone else.
    I love how the union leader makes excuses for the suspects:

    Michael McKenna, president of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers Local 412, blamed Wednesday's indictments in part on a lack of seniority and reduced hiring standards, as veteran officers leave the department seeking better pay. "We're left now with 70, 80 percent of people with under five years" of experience, McKenna said. "... They're good guys, but they don't know what they're doing."
    So, the suspected criminal activity now has a cause, lack of seniority and lax hiring standards according the the union pres. I fail to see how telling the truth in a court of law hinges upon hiring standards and seniority at the workplace. Way to go, McKenna. I'll use that defense in court next time I purger myself.

    And let's cut the "OCDO is anti-LEO" crap altogether. I bitch about taxi drivers and their bad driving habits all the time.Does this make me "anti-taxi"? Do I hate ALL taxi drivers because a few can't drive correctly? What about the other people I complain about... Do I hate all of them too?

    Some folks have had bad experiences with cops, some have bad drive thru service. The difference being, whenthey have a bad experience at Burger King,they find a manager and he makes things "right". Whenthey have a bad experience with a LEO,they get told to shut the eff up or they face arrest for DC, impeding an investigation, or any of the many other "tools" police use to induce compliance, even if they are wrong or confused about the law they are enforcing. Being told to "shut the eff up or you're going into the back of my car" does not help foster good citizen/LEO relations, right?

    You guys (LEO's) are grown ups and supposed to be community models. Please act like ones and quit complaining whenever a negative LEO thread comes up. It's not like I log into officer.com and complain about the rude disrespectful things that are said on YOUR forums about YOUR interactions with Joe Q. Citizen.
    The fact remains, it's against forum rules. This has nothing to do with opencarry. I have never told anybody to "shut the eff up and get into my car", nor have I hear it from other officers. Again, that has nothing to do with opencarry. Just the old tried and true cop bashing that happens here. This has nothing to do with officer.com, yet it does show me where you are coming from. Leave your personal feelings out of it, this has nothing to do with OC.
    so how about the post that you made that isnt anywhere close to being related to open carry?

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Well here is a pile of steaming crap to step in, so I will.

    We currently have at least one member of this forum who is also a VCDL member under charges in Virginia beach Norfolk area.* These Officers are from the same police force that has arrested that member on more than one occasion for simply carrying a firearm lawfully.

    Having three Officers brought up on charges of lying is the kind of thing that does not occur in a vacuum.* If the response from the union and department leadership is true and correct then there is a systemic problem that may pervade a large part of that department.* But here is the nub of the issue.* These three officers did not tell their lies outside the sight of their fellow officers.* Someone has been looking the other way for these guys for a long time.* As a person in Law enforcement myself, there is no way to avoid the stain from the broad brush that must be used to paint the true picture of the damage these officers have done to the LEO professional image.

    There is no question that these officers have brought into question any actions they may have taken personally in the past, but they also bring into question any action taken by that department.* That includes the arrest of VCDL activist members and members of this forum who have been harassed while lawfully exercising their rights under the law.*

    While it is true that we only have one side of the many stories coming from that part of Virginia concerning harassment of citizens carrying firearms in the open, there can be no question that the harassment is occurring.* That harassment is being carried our systematically by the same department that is the source of this current story.* So there may well be a connection between the discovery of a pocket of LEO's caught and charged with lying, perjury, and falsification, and the harassment of citizens open carrying a firearm.

    I do not think that speculation concerning the possible involvement of these particular officers in the incidents we are aware of is out of bounds for this forum.* The context of the thread was in just that line of presentation.

    As a member of this form that recognizes LEOs are regularly but sometimes unjustly slammed on this forum, I also can recognize when the actions of officers SHOULD come under critical scrutiny, and this is one of those times.* If these three officers are guilty as charged, they will have given every LEO in the United States a Black eye.* I for one have no problem discussing their actions, and I have no problem seeing the connection with OC on this forum.* But I also am not ready to convict them without a fair hearing.* Lets all just wait and see how far this thing goes.
    Well said. If these are indeed the officers related to the Danbus incidents, then yeah, I would say that may be related. Nobody has claimed that though.

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    cbackous wrote:
    nitrovic wrote:
    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    nitrovic wrote:
    Furthermore, I don't see how this has anything to do with "open carry". More than that, these officers haven't been convicted and the story doesn't even mentioned what the story was behind the charges.
    Agreed. This post was not about open carry. Perhaps you should tell Chkultr, the author of this thread? Why are you bitching at Doug for replying? Or is this more about a personal problem with Doug and less about the thread being off-topic?

    Disagree. The story DID say what the charges were about: perjury, lies, deceit. And not just any type of perjury, the type committed by an officer of the law. Someone judges take for their honest word when they testify in court. And let's not forget, when an officer gets into trouble, it's nearly impossible for the press to get the whole story, because well... those records are*not available due to the crime, investigation (and punishment) being a "personnel matter" handled internally by the department. *
    The indictments allege that he induced another to give false testimony under oath and that he gave a false report to a law enforcement official about a crime.

    The indictments allege that Wenzel gave false testimony while under oath in General District Court in September 2007 and in Circuit Court in April.

    His indictment says he made a false statement to a law enforcement officer on Sept. 17 while the officer was investigating a crime committed by someone else.
    I love how the union leader makes excuses for the suspects:

    Michael McKenna, president of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers Local 412, blamed Wednesday's indictments in part on a lack of seniority and reduced hiring standards, as veteran officers leave the department seeking better pay. "We're left now with 70, 80 percent of people with under five years" of experience, McKenna said. "... They're good guys, but they don't know what they're doing."
    So, the suspected criminal activity now has a cause, lack of seniority and lax hiring standards according the the union pres. I fail to see how telling the truth in a court of law hinges upon hiring standards and seniority at the workplace. Way to go, McKenna. I'll use that defense in court next time I purger myself.

    And let's cut the "OCDO is anti-LEO" crap altogether. I bitch about taxi drivers and their bad driving habits all the time.*Does this make me "anti-taxi"? Do I hate ALL taxi drivers because a few can't drive correctly? What about the other people I complain about... Do I hate all of them too?

    Some folks have had bad experiences with cops, some have bad drive thru service. The difference being, when*they have a bad experience at Burger King,*they find a manager and he makes things "right". When*they have a bad experience with a LEO,*they get told to shut the eff up or they face arrest for DC, impeding an investigation, or any of the many other "tools" police use to induce compliance, even if they are wrong or confused about the law they are enforcing. Being told to "shut the eff up or you're going into the back of my car" does not help foster good citizen/LEO relations, right?

    You guys (LEO's) are grown ups and supposed to be community models. Please act like ones and quit complaining whenever a negative LEO thread comes up. It's not like I log into officer.com and complain about the rude disrespectful things that are said on YOUR forums about YOUR interactions with Joe Q. Citizen.
    The fact remains, it's against forum rules. This has nothing to do with opencarry. I have never told anybody to "shut the eff up and get into my car", nor have I hear it from other officers. Again, that has nothing to do with opencarry. Just the old tried and true cop bashing that happens here. This has nothing to do with officer.com, yet it does show me where you are coming from. Leave your personal feelings out of it, this has nothing to do with OC.
    so how about the post that you made that isnt anywhere close to being related to open carry?
    I was making a point. It appears it worked.

  18. #18
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    For how many cops there are in the state, there's sure to be a few bad ones. But, like gun owners, the bad ones make them all look bad.

  19. #19
    Newbie W.E.G.'s Avatar
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    This news is completely relevant in this forum.

    Norfolk's PD has done a fine job of making itself the poster-child of how to not handle open carry situations.

    The fact that the Norfolk PD now has three of its members under indictment for acts of deceit and dishonesty underscores the relevance of the issue.

    Anybody who would suggest otherwise is complaining for the wrong reasons, or simply has not been paying attention.

  20. #20
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    W.E.G. wrote:
    This news is completely relevant in this forum.

    Norfolk's PD has done a fine job of making itself the poster-child of how to not handle open carry situations.

    The fact that the Norfolk PD now has three of its members under indictment for acts of deceit and dishonesty underscores the relevance of the issue.

    Anybody who would suggest otherwise is complaining for the wrong reasons, or simply has not been paying attention.
    such as nitrovic. ok.. it all makes sense now

  21. #21
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    Cops lie all the time. This is no surprise. They are heavily shielded from accountability which naturally fosters corruption.

  22. #22
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    mpolo79 wrote:
    Cops lie all the time. This is no surprise. They are heavily shielded from accountability which naturally fosters corruption.
    Reinforced by the "blue wall of silence" whereby some officers with a misplaced sense of loyalty protect their co-workers.

    Obviously, in this case, there might have been a chink in the wall somewhere.

    But I'll wager its just a piece of a fuller picture.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    mpolo79 wrote:
    Cops lie all the time. This is no surprise. They are heavily shielded from accountability which naturally fosters corruption.
    Good job guys!!! Just proving the cop hating that only "a few" on this site display. You guys are too easy to smoke out.

  24. #24
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    W.E.G. wrote:
    This news is completely relevant in this forum.

    Norfolk's PD has done a fine job of making itself the poster-child of how to not handle open carry situations.

    The fact that the Norfolk PD now has three of its members under indictment for acts of deceit and dishonesty underscores the relevance of the issue.

    Anybody who would suggest otherwise is complaining for the wrong reasons, or simply has not been paying attention.
    This story does not involved open carrying, it is NOT relevant at all.

  25. #25
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    nitrovic wrote:
    W.E.G. wrote:
    This news is completely relevant in this forum.

    Norfolk's PD has done a fine job of making itself the poster-child of how to not handle open carry situations.

    The fact that the Norfolk PD now has three of its members under indictment for acts of deceit and dishonesty underscores the relevance of the issue.

    Anybody who would suggest otherwise is complaining for the wrong reasons, or simply has not been paying attention.
    This story does not involved open carrying, it is NOT relevant at all.
    Well either is CC but we talk about that all the time.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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