Venator wrote:
wardog6d wrote:
Tonight I had dinner with a couple of LEO's to discuss OC ing in the area as suggested, and I qoute " If we recieve a call regarding you OCing, you will be arrested for disturbing the peace. Your weapon will be confiscated. In which you may not get it back as it may become lost in the evidance room. If anyone is caught OCing in our jurisdication regardless if they have a CPL or not they will be arrested. Open carry in a holster is still considered concealed as some of the weapon is just that concealed and you could be charged with CCW. "Unqoute. This is after I provided all the information regarding OC ing provided by this site. One of the LEO's basicly told me just get the CPL you know you can. The state has made it very easy. Why would I want to OC when I can get a CPL.
So even though these two were merely patrol officers and I expected no less I still plan on meeting with several officials within the community next week to inform them and discuss the issue.
These officers are both from the same downriver community city. Both officers have been on the force for 8-10 years. Neither officer has ever recieved a call for OCing.
Thiswas my first contact to merely discuss OCing in the downriver community. I have worked with both of these officers in the past and know them on a first name basis.
I like the under lined part. Even if you have a CPL and you OC we will arrest you for CCW?? WTF! Let's see you are carrying concealed (according to the officer) and you have a valid CPL, so we arrest you for carrying concealed. That's logic at it's finest.
Time and again, newbies on this forum are told, "Don't bother asking the police about this matter. Just send the relevant parties (ie. the chief, but more importantly the training officer) the packet, and leave it at that."
The reason to not talk to them about it is that it comes off as you asking permission, and they see it as a weakness that they can and do exploite. This was clearly demonstrated by the accounting of our newer members conversation with his locals.
wardog6d,
It's a little obvious that your still of the mindset that you need to "ask permission" to exercise your right to bear arms. This is not only demonstrated by your efforts to placate the local constobolary and other officials, but also by your efforts to get written permission from local shop owners. That written permission means little, if anything at all, other than giving you a false piece of mind. The only time you need permission to OC in someone's store, is when they have posted it no weapons, or told you not to. It's like asking permission to wear a cross, or a rainbow shirt inside their store. All it does is draw undue attention to the topic, thereby making it an issue.
Other than your own personal peace of mind, I'm not sure what your trying to accomplish by these meetings. The best thing to do is just send them the packet, and leave it at that. They are either going to be for it (meaning they are going to uphold the law), or against it. If they for it, then a meeting will accomplish nothing (other than your peace of mind). If they are against it, then the meeting will accomplish nothing.
Take your recent conversation for example. You gave the officers the information. They know the law, so there is NO EXCUSE for them to try such intimidations tactics under color of law yet, they did it anyway. What did you accomplish with that meeting? I'd say it's obvious that it didn't endear you to their hearts. Also, since they demonstrated a vindictive attitude, you might consider how it will affect your relationship with them in the future. On the positive side, you now know that they don't want you (or anyone) to OC, so you know that doing so will probably offend them.
Also, it is inadvisable to go around, asking business owners permission to OC. That is a good way to get prohibited signs up, because more often than not, when permission for something out of the mainstream is asked for, the instinctive reaction is "No". A better way to approach the problem is to just do it and be a good example. It isn't rude or inconsiderate to carry (OC or CC. There are proponents from both camps who believe in asking permission first) inside someone's establishment without first asking permission. Again, it's like asking to enter with a rainbow shirt, or a cross necklass. Asking permission just makes an issue out of something that should be treated as a non issue.
If you aren't confident in OC'ing, then don't do it. I realize that asking permission is a way to build that confidence, but consider the trade off. It's a good way to get places posted as prohibited, and that is not a good trade off for your confidence. A better way to build confidence is to study the matter (that means reading and rereading the threads titiled, "MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY INFO", and "WASH, RINSE, REPEAT") untill you are confident that you know how to handle any potential situation. Another good way to build confidence is "numbers". Get together with a group of people (I hear a Brownstown MOC M&G calling) who are OC'ing to get more comfortable.
Here's a question:
Did you read, and thouroghly study the two threads I mentioned, before having that conversation with those two officers? I have to ask because, if you did, then you would know that those officer told you that they intended to violate your civil rights under both the 4th amendment, the 2nd amendment, and the state constitution.
Confidence is built by gaining knowledge and experience, not by asking permission. Asking permission only give a false sense of confidence, because it can easily be revoked on a whim, at moments notice.
