What is a right?

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Pointman –



Let me begin by saying I think we agree on all points but one I think there needs to be some sort of education or training before we turn armed persons out on the street and you do not. This is correct?



When you say dose your situation and solution apply to everyone else NO absolutely not I would be a fool to think that! Many more than you think YES! I understand ( you can include me in this) we are fighting for anything we can get at this point but quick abrupt action will only serve doom OUR cause in the long run. Allowing open carry with no sort of licensing and/or registration (I would personally like to avoid registration)will explode in our faces as soon as the first felon uses it to his advantage. Then the governor can say I told you so or what ever crap he chooses to spew out next. Additionally marksmanship is not enough, I know this from experience of people close to me who have been assaulted while armed, there is a mindset that has to be obtained.



I do not have much time tonight to explain my point of view furtherbut I will be back and please know we strive for the same things and only our paths differ.



Good night.

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FLR, why would a felon-- a person who cannot legally possess a gun-- want to open carry?

OC without formal or mandated training is already legal, why add a restriction? What other Constitutional rights ought to require formal training or licensing prior to their exercise?

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Shotgun-

I will not delve into the mind of a felon and try to find reasonor explainthe things they do.


Hunting is a right in Wisconsin and anyone born after1973 must take ahunters safety class.

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A convictedfelon is already prohibited from owning a firearm!!

So how is adding more laws and regulations on top of what is already out ther going to stop that felon from ignoring those laws too??

Doyle vetoed our CCW chances like what, twice already??

I feel that the more people we have carrying openly may lead to the Gov seeing the need to allow us to carry concealed! Some people will always be scared at the sight of a gun, there is no fixing that. So if enough people start to complain that they do not like seeing people carrying openly, and crime goes down, It may force him to reverse his decision and finally allow CCW rights!

It is kind of a backwards way of getting what we all want in the first place, and that is the right to carry concealed.

I carry openly whenI am out in the woods and fields picking blueberries, I am crossing the roads to get to bigger & better places with bigger & better berries. I have had an Oneida County Sherriff stop and ask if we are ok becuase he thought we had car problems, He saw my stainless .357 in a cordura clip-on holster on my hip and never said one word about it!

If I can carry openly in semi-wilderness areas to protect myself from predators, Why can't I openly carry in a metro area where my chances of being attacked by a predator just increased by over 10,000%

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FLR72 wrote:

Shotgun-

I will not delve into the mind of a felon and try to find reasonor explainthe things they do.


Hunting is a right in Wisconsin and anyone born after1973 must take ahunters safety class.

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I didn't ask which Constitutional rights do require formal training or licensing, I asked which ones OUGHT to. (That do not currently.) And explain why, please.

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The First Amendment Right to free speech and press freedom ought to be better regulated. That it is not has allowed the ranks of the BOG to swell with their influence.

This inspite of, for instance, The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America by Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt or Charles Murray's Real Education: Four Simple Truths fo Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality. (He's surviving co-author of The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life)

A chapter in Real Education is, 'Too Many People Are Going To College'. That is well demonstrated here on OCDO.

Prepare to be assimilated by the BOG. Resistance to Obamination is futile. BOG Brother is watching!

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Pointman wrote:

opusd2 seems to have a great solution: To lower the crime rate, require criminals to register stolen guns, and when they're done using the guns, return the weapon to the lawful owner.

I say we go even further and shift the burden away from the law-abiding citizen:

1.) Require criminals to acquire a crime permit from the government after completing a training class on criminal activity.

2.) Require criminals to submit a schedule of proposed crimes 30 days in advance of committing the crime, with a copy going to the intended victim(s).

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Excellent point!!! and great argument!!

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This will most likely be my last post on this subject as I feel we have made much progress towards understanding one another and are at the point of repeating ourselves.



A law has never stopped anyone from doing what they had there mind set on doing.



Pointman said-



Do good people make decisions that have rather ugly outcomes? Unfortunately, yes, it sometimes happens. That is one reason I suggest people take a training class before carrying in public, as it will help expose a person to many situations they may not have otherwise thought about, and the information a trainer provides will be more accurate than Internet debates. However, police make mistakes all the time, even if they're ex-military and now part of a SWAT team (meaning they've had a lot more training than most). Humans aren't perfect; we can only strive to educate ourselves and make the "most correct" decision.



My point exactly-



Nutczaksaid-



I feel that the more people we have carrying openly may lead to the Gov seeing the need to allow us to carry concealed! Some people will always be scared at the sight of a gun, there is no fixing that. So if enough people start to complain that they do not like seeing people carrying openly, and crime goes down, It may force him to reverse his decision and finally allow CCW rights!



OK and this may be the only way to get a CCW law passed while Jimmy D, Super Genius is in office. (I am being very sarcastic about the super genius part) But at that point there will be classroom and range time involved.



To me it is obvious open carry is legal and I do recommend most anyone going through the brush up north carry a side arm or rifle or shotgun if they have one. (There are no mountain lions in northern Wisconsin my A#$.) But at this point you are doing it more in a hunting / rural environment not urban these are two different animals. I feel now as in the past it has been up to the officer, sheriff or community weather or not to allow OC. (I also have run in to law enforcement who did not care about my side arm, up north, as far back as 15 years ago!!)



To sum it up if a legislature would submit a bill saying open carry would be allowed in public areas, parks, streets, ect. BUT reserving the right for any private entity/ business to deny OC on its private property by placing a high visibility stating such at the door. But / and only after the person compleated and passed an approved course, witch would include a background check,or already having and physically possessing another state’s CCW permit. I AM ALL FOR IT…I know your going to kill me for the background check, but you get a stamp on your DL or state ID or other state ID that basically says I am not a felon leave me alone it is ok for me to have a gun. FYI-This is very similar to how it works in many other states.


Have a nice Sunday guys… And dose anyone know if there is a public PRISim judgment trainer (it’s a fancy shooting gallery you may want to look it up its really cool) in the Milwaukee area.

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FLR72 wrote:

To sum it up if a legislature would submit a bill saying open carry would be allowed in public areas, parks, streets, ect. BUT reserving the right for any private entity/ business to deny OC on its private property by placing a high visibility stating such at the door. But / and only after the person compleated and passed an approved course, witch would include a background check,or already having and physically possessing another state’s CCW permit. I AM ALL FOR IT…I know your going to kill me for the background check, but you get a stamp on your DL or state ID or other state ID that basically says I am not a felon leave me alone it is ok for me to have a gun. FYI-This is very similar to how it works in many other states.

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OC is a right in WI. It is against the law to infringe anthers rights. A business owner not allowing someone to exercise their right to OC in their store is therefore infringing the persons rights. The difference between rights and priveleges expains how other states allow banning of CC in private establishments. Since CC is a PERMIT (aka privledge) there is no right protection so a store owner can ban your privelege.

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Pointman-



If open carry was a undeniable right (at this time) I, and I assume you, with many other people would be carrying on the streets of Milwaukee, Madison, Racine, ect with no problems. However I guarantee when I visit Milwaukee next week I will not see one person exercising his /her O.C. right, almost certainly for fear of arrest. Some sort of legal precedence needs to be set. The governor’s answer to a reporters question is nowhere near enough to warrant O.C. with out the possibility or fear of arrest anywhere in Wisconsin; furthermore if they believe in O.C. so much why aren’t they helping “Mr.Parabellum” get his gun back? After all “Mr Parabellum” was exercising his rights. Judge a man by his actions not by his words. (I still haven’t read the A.G.’s comment on the subject but if it is of a similar nature we have little or nothing.) Cite all the law and 2[suP]nd[/suP] amendment all you want but if I get put in jail for O.C. I would not call it a right.



- Smithman



I have C.C. (concealed carried) in 5 states at this point and all of those states have different rules/ laws on who, how and when you can exercise this privilege/ right. Because of that it requires me to do a bit of homework before traveling to another state with any gun, concealed or not. Without exception all of these states (I have yet to find one state that denies a business/ personal residence this option) allow a business owner or person at his/her residence to “DENY” your privilege/ right to O.C. or C.C. on/in there property/ residence. Furthermore in NO state can you (unless you are on dutyLaw Enforcementor Military acting on orders)O.C. or C.C. in a Federal building, post office, airport, court house, and until the middle of next month a national park/ national recreation area to name a few. Sorry that is just the way it is and I have to agree with one or two of those no gun areas.



As some others have clamed NOT to be I also am NOT an attorney, lawmaker, or law enforcement. I would describe my self someone who has been motivated to try and find a way to get the wheels in motion to allow law abiding citizens to O.C. and C.C. in Wisconsin. And by knowing a few people are out there and are willing to push the limits, even if it means arrest, is what inspired me to start putting ideas on this blog. None of these are solely mine or have never been put into law before. All of these ideas are laws that you would have to abide by if you were to move to another state and get a C.C. permit. When a state makes a new law, especially like this, they often look to other states for ideas or precedence.



It is not you and I who need convincing it is the fence sitters and the ones who are just plain afraid of the idea of anyone with a gun, let alone on the street. The governors track record on guns in not good. I truly believe if he had his way we would be describing all of our guns as spring or air powered or maybe rimfire.



F.Y.I---



Just because you live in Wisconsin dose not mean you cannot have a C.C.W. Many states offer a nonresident permit, Utah and Florida being the most popular, and both classes are available in the state of Wisconsin at various locations. (I know a friend who is doing his Utah class and range time next week in Waukesha. I want to say it costs @$200 I could be wrong it may be as much as $300) If you have the means I would encourage everyone to get one or both. This would allow you to legally CC and possibly OC in @35 states give or take.



Enjoy the Snow Storm guys, I know I always do.

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FLR72 wrote:

If open carry was a undeniable right (at this time) I, and I assume you, with many other people would be carrying on the streets of Milwaukee, Madison, Racine, ect with no problems.

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OC is an undeniable right, and I have carried openly in Madison in broad daylight without any problems. I don't believe anyone who has seen me has called the police, and in recent conversations with the police they have acknowledged it's legality.

I doubt you will find anywhere in the country where OC is so common that you're likely to see another person doing it on any given day. That fact doesn't negate it being a right.

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Shotgun-



So you O.C. in Madison every day or on a regular/ weekly basis? May I ask what type of gun?



I will O.C. in Henderson N.V. in @ 20min. I will no doubt in my mindsee other people who are O.C.asit is not uncommon to see people O.C. in the South West at all it is a dally occurrence. (Check the NV, UT, NM or AZ parts of this blog) I wish we could do the same in Wisconsin any day everyday all day with out worrying about being harassed or arrested. How do you and Iaccomplish this?



Enjoy the snow for me.

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A somewhat irregular basis.

I normally carry a G23, G35 or G20. Have also carried Ruger SP101 and GP100.

Oh, I'll certainly enjoy the snow that's coming tonight!

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FLR72:

Article I section 25 of the Wisconsin state constitution reads: "The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose". It does not say the people have the privilege to keep and bear arms -----. We understand the enormous difference, apparently you do not as you seem to use right and privilege in the same context. The legislature can not infringe on a constitutional right by adding prodedures and restrictions to it. It can do so at will to a privilege. We understand the extreme responsibility that comes with exercising the right to carry. We are also adamant that those rights are not up for barter. The frustration we have is the lack of universal acceptance by local law enforcement that the right to keep and bear arms exists. Those LEO's that refuse to recognize our right to carry and subject us to undue( and in my opinion unconstitutional) harassment present a formidable challenge to us. As formidable as that challenge is we are not about to compromise our rights by adding training, background checks, location restrictions and other infringements just to earn their favor, especially when there is strong recognition of our open carry rights by the state supreme court, the attorney general office, a number of local law enforcement and the governor himself. I think I speak for all when I say we will not trade our open carry rights for a conceal carry privilege just to stop the intimidation and harrasment from some hardcase LEO's. LEO's that want laws that only read to their advantage.

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Lammie wrote:

Article I section 25 of the Wisconsin state constitution reads: "The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose". It does not say the people have the privilege to keep and bear arms -----.

We understand the enormous difference, apparently you do not as you seem to use right and privilege in the same context.

The legislature can not infringe on a constitutional right by adding prodedures and restrictions to it. It can do so at will to a privilege.

We understand the extreme responsibility that comes with exercising the right to carry. We are also adamant that those rights are not up for barter.

The frustration we have is the lack of universal acceptance by local law enforcement that the right to keep and bear arms exists. Those LEO's that refuse to recognize our right to carry and subject us to undue (and in my opinion unconstitutional) harassment present a formidable challenge to us.

As formidable as that challenge is we are not about to compromise our rights by adding training, background checks, location restrictions and other infringements just to earn their favor, especially when there is strong recognition of our open carry rights by the state supreme court, the attorney general office, a number of local law enforcement and the governor himself.

I think I speak for all when I say we will not trade our open carry rights for a conceal carry privilege just to stop the intimidation and harrasment from some hardcase LEO's. LEO's that want laws that only read to their advantage[my emphasis DH].

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Bears repeating! Lammie speaks for me! Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA Kiss my freekin' aass!