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Thread: Open Carry with CCW is not Open Carry

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    I keep reading stories about individuals that claim to be open carrying while they have a CCW and when confronted by law enforcement, the first thing the officer asks is whether or not they have a CCW. The first thing the officer should be checking is whether or not the weapon is loaded and one action away from firing.
    In my opinion, the point of Open Carry is that we dont need a CCW to Open Carry.
    That a CCW is not required by law.
    The difference being:
    Utah allows unlicensed open carry of a firearm that is at least 2 actions from firing. For example, a semi-auto may have a full mag but the chamber must be empty. Permit holder may open carry as well, but their firearms may be fully loaded.

    Just pointing out, you dont need a CCW as it is not required unless you are open carrying with say, a 9mm with jacked and loaded.



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    DeadReckoner wrote:
    The first thing the officer should be checking is whether or not the weapon is loaded and one action away from firing.
    Not an auspicious beginning.

    A cop must mind his own business unless he has reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime.

    The only action short of firing is 'triggering'.

    A gun is a liability unless it is ready to function, Condition One or Two depending on its design. Both conditions have a round chambered.

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    Get your head our of your cockpit and you won't have to dead reckon. Newbie to newbie. Over and out.

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    I take it you disagree?

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    Open or concealed carry of a defensive firearm that is not in near-full battery is not only a dangerous practice, if required by some law, it borders on lunacy. I defeats the most basic purpose of a defensive arm which is a device capable of being put to use in as short of time as possible.

    While I do not personally care for carrying a single action pistol in Condition One, I fully and completely understand the decision for those who do. Getting that weapon out and ready for immediate use could very easily be the difference between going home or going to the hospital or worse.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Troll!

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    Here in Indiana, you must have a license to carry a handgun whether openly or concealed. I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the law and I do have one.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    The OP is obviously from Utah and his comments about carrying 2 actions away from firing is specific to Utah law.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    DeadReckoner wrote:
    I keep reading stories about individuals that claim to be open carrying while they have a CCW and when confronted by law enforcement, the first thing the officer asks is whether or not they have a CCW. The first thing the officer should be checking is whether or not the weapon is loaded and one action away from firing.
    In my opinion, the point of Open Carry is that we dont need a CCW to Open Carry.
    That a CCW is not required by law.
    The difference being:
    Utah allows unlicensed open carry of a firearm that is at least 2 actions from firing. For example, a semi-auto may have a full mag but the chamber must be empty. Permit holder may open carry as well, but their firearms may be fully loaded.

    Just pointing out, you dont need a CCW as it is not required unless you are open carrying with say, a 9mm with jacked and loaded.

    So what do folks that carry revolvers do?

    Here in Tn we have to have a HCP to carry CC/OC. No stipulations on condition.


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    While I see the point the OP is trying to make, it really does not apply to carry for defensive purposes.

    If your purpose for carrying is based in politics, activist demonstration, or public awareness purposes, fine. Then getting a permit would make a statement in opposition to the point you are trying to make.

    But those who carry primarily for self defense usuallyobtain permits so we have the most options available for carry. Many here carry indifferently as to concealment, and the CWP makes that possible.

    As to what the police will or should ask for if they stop someone, most of us don't care because we do not believe that under most circumstances a police officer would have probable cause to stop us in the first place, just for carrying a firearm. SO in most cases we will resist supplying any documents, including carry permits.

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    Two actions? Let's see...that would be drawing and releasing safety on my 1911. Am I correct?
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    rodbender wrote:
    Two actions? Let's see...that would be drawing and releasing safety on my 1911. Am I correct?
    On my Glock, Drawing and then pulling the trigger? Or Drawing, putting my finger on the trigger, then pulling?

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    DeadReckoner wrote:
    I keep reading stories about individuals that claim to be open carrying while they have a CCW and when confronted by law enforcement, the first thing the officer asks is whether or not they have a CCW. The first thing the officer should be checking is whether or not the weapon is loaded and one action away from firing.
    In my opinion, the point of Open Carry is that we dont need a CCW to Open Carry.
    That a CCW is not required by law.
    The difference being:
    Utah allows unlicensed open carry of a firearm that is at least 2 actions from firing. For example, a semi-auto may have a full mag but the chamber must be empty. Permit holder may open carry as well, but their firearms may be fully loaded.

    Just pointing out, you dont need a CCW as it is not required unless you are open carrying with say, a 9mm with jacked and loaded.

    Your comments do not appl7y generally to the several states - maybe Utah, but please post threads in state forum when speaking to state law specifics.

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    It's usually a good idea to read through the forum before making your first post. Most people on here have forgotten more about open carry then you ever knew. To come off as lecturing about something that the majority of people on here know forward and backward is a less than perfect start.

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    DeadReckoner wrote:
    Utah allows unlicensed open carry of a firearm that is at least 2 actions from firing. For example, a semi-auto may have a full mag but the chamber must be empty. Permit holder may open carry as well, but their firearms may be fully loaded.
    That sounds like some sort of BS that they came up with for hunters. You know, keep your shot gun broken open or action open and no shells chambered until you get from your truck to your dear stand.

    Anyone OCing with a pistol holstered on their hip and doesn't have a bullet chamered and ready to go is a fool.
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    yale wrote:
    DeadReckoner wrote:
    Utah allows unlicensed open carry of a firearm that is at least 2 actions from firing. For example, a semi-auto may have a full mag but the chamber must be empty. Permit holder may open carry as well, but their firearms may be fully loaded.
    That sounds like some sort of BS that they came up with for hunters. You know, keep your shot gun broken open or action open and no shells chambered until you get from your truck to your dear stand.

    Anyone OCing with a pistol holstered on their hip and doesn't have a bullet chamered and ready to go is a fool.
    That's how theIsraeli Military carries all sidearms, I believe. Because of the variety of firearms they use, different safeties for each type, andthe limitedtraining their soldiers get,they have adopted a safety procedure of carrying every handgun with an empty chamber and safety off. Racking the slide is part of their draw.

    However, I agreethat carrying with a round in the chamber is best. I carry condition 1 with both my CC and OC handguns (Kel-Tec P3AT and Taurus PT101, both are DA).

    ...Orygunner...



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    IIRC the Utah law is that without a CWP and OC you must carry 2 actions from firing, but that stricture does not apply with a CWP.

    It is because of these vagaries of the law that nearly 90% of OCDO have CC permits according to forum polling.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    OMG, geuss he never read the part of constitution that allows one to actually leave
    the petty dictatorships in your area. I for one have mine so that me and my gun
    can also return to the local dictatorship unimpeaded.

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    deepdiver wrote:
    IIRC the Utah law is that without a CWP and OC you must carry 2 actions from firing, but that stricture does not apply with a CWP.

    It is because of these vagaries of the law that nearly 90% of OCDO have CC permits according to forum polling.
    True dat. It also doesn't hurt to have more carry options than just unlicensed OC.

    More options are always good.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    A cop must mind his own business unless he has reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime.
    +1

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    I simply wish to carry in every situation at all times, CC or OC, and having a 'permit' covers it all.

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    This is a funny thread title. Open carry is open carry with or without a CCW.

    Here in Michigan, open carry is actually enhanced by a CPL (CCW equivalent). The few places where our laws prohibit open carry are not restricted to those who carry CPLs (with a few exceptions, of course).

    The ironic caveat to this is that CPL holders are not allowed to carry concealed weapons in most of these locations; they therefore must carry openly to be legal!

    Our laws (as written) indicate a CPL holder may (only) openly carry a firearm into a public school, for example. I know of no one who has tried this yet. I certainly will not be our state's first test subject either. I also will not actively encourage anyone to do the same, given our "save the children" political climate.

    We have no idea how such an action would be approached by our courts. I would, however, expect school staff to over-react and immediately involve the police in any first encounter. It might prove to be no big deal. However, I offer this example of how our state's CPL holders have less restrictions on open carry.

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    DeadReckoner wrote:
    I keep reading stories about individuals that claim to be open carrying while they have a CCW and when confronted by law enforcement, the first thing the officer asks is whether or not they have a CCW.* The first thing the officer should be checking is whether or not the weapon is loaded and one action away from firing.
    In my opinion, the point of Open Carry is that we dont need a CCW to Open Carry.
    That a CCW is not required by law.
    The difference being:
    Utah allows unlicensed open carry of a firearm that is at least 2 actions from firing. For example, a semi-auto may have a full mag but the chamber must be empty. Permit holder may open carry as well, but their firearms may be fully loaded.

    Just pointing out, you dont need a CCW as it is not required unless you are open carrying with say, a 9mm with jacked and loaded.

    Maybe I am mistaken but I think the point he is making is that the cop shouldn't be asking for a CCW permit because open carry is legal with out it and has no relation to the permit or lack of.

    OrgyGunner is close with the Israeli carry reasons. They are now exceedingly well trained and I wouldn't screw with them.

    I wrote this before I read Orgy's comment and just edited it.

    As for carrying a weapon you can't fire with out taking multiple steps... There a lot of people who swear Israeli carry is the way to go because it is safer and takes no longer to fire because of the draw motion where you rack the slide as it comes out of the holster. First, it is important to know where Israeli carry come from. Back in the day Israel had really crappy weapons that had a tendency to go off all by themselves, that is why they trained to carry without a round in the chamber. So they just trained that upon drawing, or going into a building to clear, you cycled the action. That then got construed to where it is now with people thinking it's safer. If you have a modern firearm the cold hard fact is they don't go off with out pulling the trigger. There is no point in Israeli carry any longer for that reason alone.

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    Oregon is similar, in that an Oregon CHL does not require you to carry concealed, and "enhances" where you can Open Carry. Without a CHL, you are restricted from posessing a firearm in "public buildings" including schools, hospitals, city hall, etc., and the CHL removesevery state restriction for carrying except for some courthouses.

    We are allowed with a CHL to carry either open or concealed into public schools, but the closest I've come to that is OCing in my car while picking up the kids, or CC if I have to go inside. I asked at my sons's Elementary school if they knew OC was legal on school property with a CHL, one woman wasn't sure, but the other actually knew it was. I then asked if there would be any reaction, or if anyone would do anything, and she replied, oh, yes, they would call the police immediately and lock down the school... Even though it's legal.

    I heard it described once that what OCers are looking for is a world where OC is not frowned upon, and the ONLY way to get to that place is for more people to OC!

    Perhaps if we can get OC to the point of favorable acceptance everywhere else, we can exercise our rights in the schools. Until then, like Hcidem, I'm not willing to push it that far... Yet.

    ...Orygunner...

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    DeadReckoner wrote:
    I keep reading stories about individuals that claim to be open carrying while they have a CCW and when confronted by law enforcement, the first thing the officer asks is whether or not they have a CCW. The first thing the officer should be checking is whether or not the weapon is loaded and one action away from firing.
    In my opinion, the point of Open Carry is that we dont need a CCW to Open Carry.
    That a CCW is not required by law.
    The difference being:
    Utah allows unlicensed open carry of a firearm that is at least 2 actions from firing. For example, a semi-auto may have a full mag but the chamber must be empty. Permit holder may open carry as well, but their firearms may be fully loaded.

    Just pointing out, you dont need a CCW as it is not required unless you are open carrying with say, a 9mm with jacked and loaded.

    So what do folks that carry revolvers do?

    Here in Tn we have to have a HCP to carry CC/OC. No stipulations on condition.
    Revolver carriers in Utah without a permit must carry with No Live Round in the cylinder under the hammer or the NEXT cylinder in sequence. So for a 6 shooter the most he could have would be 4 live rounds.

    Safeties don't count under Utah law. The Federal School Zone law also makes it very challenging to open carry without a permit with Utah having sooooo many schools and daycares.

    With a CFP you can carry fully loaded, cocked and locked, safety on or off. Also, Utah does not have a Brandishing statute!

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