Open Carry with CCW is not Open Carry

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I simply wish to carry in every situation at all times, CC or OC, and having a 'permit' covers it all.

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This is a funny thread title. Open carry is open carry with or without a CCW.

Here in Michigan, open carry is actually enhanced by a CPL (CCW equivalent). The few places where our laws prohibit open carry are not restricted to those who carry CPLs (with a few exceptions, of course).

The ironic caveat to this is that CPL holders are not allowed to carry concealed weapons in most of these locations; they therefore must carry openly to be legal!

Our laws (as written) indicate a CPL holder may (only) openly carry a firearm into a public school, for example. I know of no one who has tried this yet. I certainly will not be our state's first test subject either. I also will not actively encourage anyone to do the same, given our "save the children" political climate.

We have no idea how such an action would be approached by our courts. I would, however, expect school staff to over-react and immediately involve the police in any first encounter. It might prove to be no big deal. However, I offer this example of how our state's CPL holders have less restrictions on open carry.

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DeadReckoner wrote:

I keep reading stories about individuals that claim to be open carrying while they have a CCW and when confronted by law enforcement, the first thing the officer asks is whether or not they have a CCW.  The first thing the officer should be checking is whether or not the weapon is loaded and one action away from firing.
In my opinion, the point of Open Carry is that we dont need a CCW to Open Carry.
That a CCW is not required by law.
The difference being:
Utah allows unlicensed open carry of a firearm that is at least 2 actions from firing. For example, a semi-auto may have a full mag but the chamber must be empty. Permit holder may open carry as well, but their firearms may be fully loaded.

Just pointing out, you dont need a CCW as it is not required unless you are open carrying with say, a 9mm with jacked and loaded.

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Maybe I am mistaken but I think the point he is making is that the cop shouldn't be asking for a CCW permit because open carry is legal with out it and has no relation to the permit or lack of.

OrgyGunner is close with the Israeli carry reasons. They are now exceedingly well trained and I wouldn't screw with them.

I wrote this before I read Orgy's comment and just edited it.

As for carrying a weapon you can't fire with out taking multiple steps... There a lot of people who swear Israeli carry is the way to go because it is safer and takes no longer to fire because of the draw motion where you rack the slide as it comes out of the holster. First, it is important to know where Israeli carry come from. Back in the day Israel had really crappy weapons that had a tendency to go off all by themselves, that is why they trained to carry without a round in the chamber. So they just trained that upon drawing, or going into a building to clear, you cycled the action. That then got construed to where it is now with people thinking it's safer. If you have a modern firearm the cold hard fact is they don't go off with out pulling the trigger. There is no point in Israeli carry any longer for that reason alone.

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Oregon is similar, in that an Oregon CHL does not require you to carry concealed, and "enhances" where you can Open Carry. Without a CHL, you are restricted from posessing a firearm in "public buildings" including schools, hospitals, city hall, etc., and the CHL removesevery state restriction for carrying except for some courthouses.

We are allowed with a CHL to carry either open or concealed into public schools, but the closest I've come to that is OCing in my car while picking up the kids, or CC if I have to go inside. I asked at my sons's Elementary school if they knew OC was legal on school property with a CHL, one woman wasn't sure, but the other actually knew it was. I then asked if there would be any reaction, or if anyone would do anything, and she replied, oh, yes, they would call the police immediately and lock down the school... Even though it's legal.

I heard it described once that what OCers are looking for is a world where OC is not frowned upon, and the ONLY way to get to that place is for more people to OC!

Perhaps if we can get OC to the point of favorable acceptance everywhere else, we can exercise our rights in the schools. Until then, like Hcidem, I'm not willing to push it that far... Yet.

...Orygunner...

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Task Force 16 wrote:

DeadReckoner wrote:

I keep reading stories about individuals that claim to be open carrying while they have a CCW and when confronted by law enforcement, the first thing the officer asks is whether or not they have a CCW. The first thing the officer should be checking is whether or not the weapon is loaded and one action away from firing.
In my opinion, the point of Open Carry is that we dont need a CCW to Open Carry.
That a CCW is not required by law.
The difference being:
Utah allows unlicensed open carry of a firearm that is at least 2 actions from firing. For example, a semi-auto may have a full mag but the chamber must be empty. Permit holder may open carry as well, but their firearms may be fully loaded.

Just pointing out, you dont need a CCW as it is not required unless you are open carrying with say, a 9mm with jacked and loaded.

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So what do folks that carry revolvers do?

Here in Tn we have to have a HCP to carry CC/OC. No stipulations on condition.

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Revolver carriers in Utah without a permit must carry with No Live Round in the cylinder under the hammer or the NEXT cylinder in sequence. So for a 6 shooter the most he could have would be 4 live rounds.

Safeties don't count under Utah law. The Federal School Zone law also makes it very challenging to open carry without a permit with Utah having sooooo many schools and daycares.

With a CFP you can carry fully loaded, cocked and locked, safety on or off. Also, Utah does not have a Brandishing statute!

JoeSparky

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Having a LEO check to see whether a semi-auto pistol is at least two actions short of firing? Have you ever done a google search on "police accidental discharges". Do one and see that this is NOT a good idea.

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Orygunner wrote:

...an Oregon CHL... removes every state restriction for carrying except for some courthouses. 

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Just out of curiosity, what courthouses can you carry into? And what are the limits in those courthouses?

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marshaul wrote:

Orygunner wrote:

...an Oregon CHL... removes every state restriction for carrying except for some courthouses. 

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Just out of curiosity, what courthouses can you carry into? And what are the limits in those courthouses?

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Cant speak for Orygunner, but in Michigan, if you have a concealed carry permit, you're legally allowed to carry into courthouses. However, a Michigan Supreme Court order forbids the practice. Fun, how the Supreme Court legislates from the bench, isn't it?

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

Cant speak for Orygunner, but in Michigan, if you have a concealed carry permit, you're legally allowed to carry into courthouses. However, a Michigan Supreme Court order forbids the practice. Fun, how the Supreme Court legislates from the bench, isn't it?

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In theory you can carry into a courtroom in CA with a CCW provided you aren't 'a party to the suit' ... but at a few courthouses in the Los AngelesCounty area, they aren't going to let you past security armed unless you're a LEO.

CA PC 171b.

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Don Barnett wrote:

Having a LEO check to see whether a semi-auto pistol is at least two actions short of firing? Have you ever done a google search on "police accidental discharges". Do one and see that this is NOT a good idea.

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I have never had a LEO even touch my firearm (in an official capacity). I have told them I have a permitand a FireArm and theysay "thank you!"

Maybe, so far I am just lucky.

JoeSparky

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yale wrote:

Anyone OCing with a pistol holstered on their hip and doesn't have a bullet chamered and ready to go is a fool.

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Me and all the fools in California thank you for that broad brushed assesment. I do think some of the fools in the IDF would disagree with you though.

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IDF are only 'fools' per force superior - they're under orders as soldiers. We are citizens armed.

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This has been discussed before, and if I remember right the Utah un-loaded requirement only applies to vehicles and city streets. Rural fully loaded OC is still OK.

Maybe one of the real OC'rs from Utah, and not the OP, can enlighten us on this.

Utah has some people who think different about things.

As I remember a few years back Utah had a bill that would allow loaded carry in a car without a permit, but a lot of people with permits objected and helped kill the bill.

It was like they had gone to the trouble of getting a permit so they could carry in a car, and they didn't want those without a permit to have the same right.

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Paladin_Havegun_Willtravel wrote:

This has been discussed before, and if I remember right the Utah un-loaded requirement only applies to vehicles and city streets. Rural fully loaded OC is still OK.

Maybe one of the real OC'rs from Utah, and not the OP, can enlighten us on this.

Utah has some people who think different about things.

As I remember a few years back Utah had a bill that would allow loaded carry in a car without a permit, but a lot of people with permits objected and helped kill the bill.

It was like they had gone to the trouble of getting a permit so they could carry in a car, and they didn't want those without a permit to have the same right.

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Here is a GREAT site specific to Utah and Federal laws with links to em even....

http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=99

JoeSparky