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Thread: What constitutes "2 actions from firing"?

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    Greetings from Colorado! I've OCed in your state on several occasions and this has always bothered me so I'm hoping someone here will indulge me. What exactly qualifies for an "action from firing"? Can the first action from firing be the fact that it's in a holster? I know that sounds stupid, but is it really any different than a safety that keeps the trigger from operating? The gun can't fire unless the trigger has been pulled and the trigger can't be pulled while it's holstered. What do you guys think?

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    centsi wrote:
    .... What exactly qualifies for an "action from firing"? Can the first action from firing be the fact that it's in a holster?...
    Well, lets see:
    When i took my CFP class with my wife, our instructor told us that there is no LAW here in Utah that indicates the 1,2,3 step rule that most states have (for CFPers). I mean, it may just be a coincidence that when you are a permit-less OCer, you have to have 2 steps before firing: Draw, and charge you weapon...

    Someone want to correct me on this one?

    Edit: as per Sarge

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    No you can not carry (with out a valid CCW permit) with one in the chamber holstered.

    These are the codes that define a loaded weapon and who can or can not carry loaded.

    What aloaded weapon is:

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.


    Who can carry a loaded weapon:


    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle;
    (b) on any public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

    76-10-523 Persons exempt from weapons laws
    (1) This part and Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, do not apply to any of the following:
    (a) a United States marshal;
    (b) a federal official required to carry a firearm;
    (c) a peace officer of this or any other jurisdiction;
    (d) a law enforcement official as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
    (e) a judge as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
    (f) a common carrier while engaged in the regular and ordinary transport of firearms as merchandise; or
    (g) a nonresident traveling in or through the state, provided that any firearm is:
    (i) unloaded; and
    (ii) securely encased as defined in Section 76-10-501.
    (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
    (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
    (b) by another state or county.




  4. #4
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    I guess this forum only lets you put two links in one post, so here is the third link

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    The answer to your question is written semi-clearly in the law. If you have a concealed firearm permit, from any state, then none of this is applicable.

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.

    Note that the first line in the law is that you cannot carry a live round chambered. If you are carrying an auto-loader, then the first mechanical action would be to rack the slide back to chamber a round. The secondmechanical action would be pulling the trigger.

    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.

    Notethat line two states "manual operation of any mechanism once". Drawing from a holster is not operation of a mechanism. This line is important if you carry a double action revolver. If there is no round in the firing position, as line one requires, then pulling the trigger onceon a double action revolver would still cause the weapon to fire. Assuming thatyou have the other cylinders loaded.

    So if you carry a double action revolver, the cylinder in-line with the barrel, and the next cylinder that it advances to need to be empty. Thus requiring TWO pulls of the trigger to fire. If you are carrying a single action revolver, then one empty cylinder in-line with the barrel should suffice, as a single action requires you to pull the hammer back, and then pull the trigger.


    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

    Anyone here open carry a muzzle loader?

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    Well, lets see:
    When i took my CFP class with my wife, our instructor told us that there is no LAW here in Utah that indicates the 1,2,3 step rule that most states have. I mean, it may just be a coincidence that when you are a permit-less OCer, you have to have 2 steps before firing: Draw, and charge you weapon...

    Someone want to correct me on this one?
    Unless he meant there was no "2 step"law for permit holders, then your instructor was wrong. See my post above.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Okay, so I think being in a holster is out. I'm still not clear why the second part defining about the "manual operation of any mechanism" is necessary. You could certainly have an auto or revolver with one chambered but with a manual safety that would have to be disengaged before the round would fire. That would be 2 manual operations of a mechanism satisfying Part 2, but still failing Part 1. What other scenario is Part 2 covering?

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    ProtectedBy9mm wrote:
    Well, lets see:
    When i took my CFP class with my wife, our instructor told us that there is no LAW here in Utah that indicates the 1,2,3 step rule that most states have. I mean, it may just be a coincidence that when you are a permit-less OCer, you have to have 2 steps before firing: Draw, and charge you weapon...

    Someone want to correct me on this one?
    Unless he meant there was no "2 step"law for permit holders, then your instructor was wrong. See my post above.
    so, a NON-CFPer who is OCing with a semi-atuomatic pistol (utah Unloaded): Drawing from your holster doesn't count as 1. So, racking the slide does, the next is pulling the trigger.

    2 actions. Charge and pull.

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    centsi wrote:
    Okay, so I think being in a holster is out. I'm still not clear why the second part defining about the "manual operation of any mechanism" is necessary. You could certainly have an auto or revolver with one chambered but with a manual safety that would have to be disengaged before the round would fire. That would be 2 manual operations of a mechanism satisfying Part 2, but still failing Part 1. What other scenario is Part 2 covering?
    A double action revolver with a round in the next chamber to rotate in is another example.

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    centsi wrote:
    Okay, so I think being in a holster is out. I'm still not clear why the second part defining about the "manual operation of any mechanism" is necessary. You could certainly have an auto or revolver with one chambered but with a manual safety that would have to be disengaged before the round would fire. That would be 2 manual operations of a mechanism satisfying Part 2, but still failing Part 1. What other scenario is Part 2 covering?


    We had to pay the law makers here to do something.

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    althor wrote:
    centsi wrote:
    Okay, so I think being in a holster is out. I'm still not clear why the second part defining about the "manual operation of any mechanism" is necessary. You could certainly have an auto or revolver with one chambered but with a manual safety that would have to be disengaged before the round would fire. That would be 2 manual operations of a mechanism satisfying Part 2, but still failing Part 1. What other scenario is Part 2 covering?
    A double action revolver with a round in the next chamber to rotate in is another example.
    Another scenario that I can think of is a weapon that fires from the open bolt. Now I understand that these are few and far between, and are usually machine guns. An example is the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon. When it has a 200 round belt loaded and ready to fire, there is no round in the chamber. If you pull the trigger, the bolt is released and pushes around in the chamber and fires it at the same time. So if this weapon was not on safe, then it could be fired with an empty chamber and one mechanical action.

    Another issue with this unnecessary "2 step" law is this. Firing position is not defined. Is that unchambered round in the M249 in the "firing position" even though it is not chambered? Is that round in-line with the barrel of a double action revolver in the "firing position", even though one mechanical action will not fire that round?


    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Another issue with this unnecessary "2 step" law is this. Firing position is not defined. Is that unchambered round in the M249 in the "firing position" even though it is not chambered? Is that round in-line with the barrel of a double action revolver in the "firing position", even though one mechanical action will not fire that round?
    I've always believed that to be in the firing position is to be chambered and inline with the barrel. I don't see the need for the distinction otherwise.

    Many refer to Utah's definition as quirky, but I don't. No other definition makes sense to me. I would never think of a semi-auto with an empty chamber and loaded magazine as loaded. That, to me, is quirky, even if it is generally accepted.

    One other thing. Guns, especially older ones, can be mishandled in a way as to cause an unintentional discharge. Autos without firing pin blocks, or revolvers without transfer bars among others can be dropped and made to discharge. Requiring that unloaded guns have empty chambers may have been an attempt to create one more level of safety, or account for everything they could think of at the time. Who knows... I'm just guessing. Its also one of the more easy things to verify if you know little else about all the different types of firearms out there. Just a thought.

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    SGT Jensen wrote:

    Another issue with this unnecessary "2 step" law is this.

    Bear in mind that Utah's law regarding what is or is not considered "loaded" gives a LOT more freedom to the gun owner/carrier than does the law in most States.

    The far "simpler" but much more restrictive definition used in 76-10-504 prohibiting the possession of a concealed weapon and imposing higher penalties if the gun "contains any ammunition" is common. In places like Cali simply have a magazine loaded and NOT in the gun has resulted in charges of a "loaded gun" I'm told.

    Utah's law has long allowed a much nicer method of hunting, for example. Rather than having to unloaded every cartridge from a rifle or Shotgun before climbing into a truck, simply assure the chamber is empty.

    While I oppose laws prohibiting possession of a gun by law abiding persons, I also recognize that there will be times and places where weapons need to be limited and it may well be appropriate to recognize the difference between a gun ready for immediate use and a gun that is not ready for such immediate use. Given that reality, I'll happily accept Utah's commonly used legal definition of "loaded" over the more typical definition even if ours is a bit less simple.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

    Anyone here open carry a muzzle loader?
    Well, now here's a question that this raises in my mind. Would my blackpowder Colt Navy fall under this, or the rest of the law?



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    Things can get tricky when you move from a standard weapon. Example I got a little NAA 22lr/mag 5 shot revolver. It is a single action revolver and rests between cylinders (aka no bullet lined up with barrel) so not in firing position and always more than one action from firing (unless you are dumb and carry it with the hammer back). To fire the gun you have to pull back the hammer (action 1) and pull the trigger (action 2). I have my permit so I have never really worried about it butcould you carry this with a full cylinder without a permit? I think it all depends on the lawyer/judge you end up with.





    1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.


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    I personally feel that it's unfortunate that we can't get that cleared up.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    I personally feel that it's unfortunate that we can't get that cleared up.
    What is unclear? The NAA? If I understand correctly, it was designed that way on purpose so you could have all five cylinders filled and have an unloaded gun.

    I think that the law is clear, and I sure don't want legislators paying attention to it lest we end up with the more 'standard' definition of loaded that many states are stuck with.

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