Carry at work....

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Aren't we all responsible for ourselves?

Why must someone else assume responsibility for what happens in our lives?

If you feel that strongly about it . . . change jobs . . . or take the risk and carry anyway, knowing that you may be fired if it is found out.

I am not a legal expert by any means, but I just don't think you have a case here.

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I'm no legal expert either; I just look at the lawsuits that I see in the news. For example, here are a few a quick Google search turned up....

BJ's Wholesale Club Shooting: http://hamptonroads.com/2008/04/shooting-victim-sues-former-employer-bjs-wholesale-club

Boca Mall: http://www.bocanews.com/news/local/557-third-lawsuit-filed-against-mall-owner-shootings-abduction.php

Trampled Wal-Mart employee lawsuit: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/03/national/main4645925.shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._4645925

Apartment Shooting Victum: http://www.apartmentwiz.com/apartment_living/articles/post_oak_at_woodway_houston_apartments_shooting_lawsuit.php

Lockheed Martin: http://www.hrexecutive.com/HRE/story.jsp?storyId=92932109

It seems there is at least a precedent to present a wrongful death suit based on an employer's responsibility to provide a safe environment. If said employer has a policy that prohibits "self protection", then the employer's liability is perhaps increased.

That said, I agree with you - I would follow my own convictions and do what I felt I needed to do to keep myself safe. I was only thinking'out loud' about the legal aspects.

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Farmer Troy wrote:

Aren't we all responsible for ourselves?

Why must someone else assume responsibility for what happens in our lives?

If you feel that strongly about it . . . change jobs . . . or take the risk and carry anyway, knowing that you may be fired if it is found out.

I am not a legal expert by any means, but I just don't think you have a case here.

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I posted this before I refreshed the page.

We're beating a dead horse here. :banghead: I fully understand your point.

I do not agree with it, nor do I agree that a company has a right to restrict my rights without providing analternative for that right, nor do I believe that I should have to work somewhere else because of it. It is a constitutional right both at a federal level as well as a state level.

Someone must assume responsibility because the companyrefuses to allow me to.

You never know where or when a problem may occur, so to say it will never happen here is an untruth.

I think the idea behind what I am saying needs to change. Companies should have no right to refuse my rights which are bound by "2" constitutions. Just like no school or college should be able to tell a kid that they can't fly a flag (which happened right after 9-11).

Sobased on what your saying, if a company states in their employee manual thatrape was OK, then it should be allowed within their walls... I think not...:shock:

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Sorry for beating the dead horse . . . I'll quit beating it now.

I guess we will agree to disagree.



P.S. I looked at those posted links . . . I generally consider those types of things to be frivolous lawsuits generated by greedy people and lawyers working the system (and making money from tragic situations).

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Farmer Troy wrote:

Sorry for beating the dead horse . . . I'll quit beating it now.

I guess we will agree to disagree.



P.S. I looked at those posted links . . . I generally consider those types of things to be frivolous lawsuits generated by greedy people and lawyers working the system (and making money from tragic situations).

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Sorry... I didn't mean to offend you or make you think that I don't value your opinion.

I do agree with you on some points, but I feel that this should not be up to the employer unless the employer is willing to go the extra step and at least lock down the building during work hours.

I do not, and never will agree with no guns in my own vehicle. To and From work (especially during the evening or night after a long day) could potentially be dangerous, and I have a right to protect myself. I do not care what a companies policy on this is. I will do what I need to do to ensure my safety.

It looks like the tides may be turning a little... http://www.hreonline.com/HRE/story.jsp?storyId=134856405&query=guns at work

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JSanderbeck wrote:

Theojt wrote:

However, this brings up a question: If a company denies your right to carry on their premises, do they inherently assume a "duty to protect" by doing so?

If anything happened of a violent nature, I would think it possible to later bring suit based on the fact that they took responsibility for your individual safety by prohibiting you from protecting yourself.

Has this been tested yet in court?

Jeff

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This was primarily where I was going with my original question.

I work at a company that was bought out by an Israeli based firm a few years ago. With the unrest in that area, I would think that a site like ours would be a good place to hack into the network to financially cripple the main branch.

With no carry,no security, and no locks on the doors, it is entirely possible (however unlikely) that we could be an attack point.

If the building was overrun by men with machine guns, who would be responsible for my safety?

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you are always responsible for your safety.

Don't ask... Don't Tell.... and be ready be Safe and be Armed.



Live free or DIE



FreeFlight

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JSanderbeck wrote:

gnbrotz wrote:

The Constitution recognizes our rights, and (supposedly) protects us from government interference with those rights. Try walking into your boss's office and giving him a piece of your mind, then hiding behind the 1st Amendment for protection.

Let me know how that works out for you.

The Second Amendment does not mean that you can bring a firearm onto my property if I have forbidden you to do so. One right can not go so far as to negate another.

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The constitution gives me the right to keep and bear arms, I can lawfully open carry or conceal carry in PA (I have a LCF), but can you point me to the amendment that says that anyone can refuse my right to bear arms?

This is the problem I have. I have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms, but anyone can refuse my right just because they want to. That is unconstitutional.

Well, I have an open door policy at work, and I have given my boss as well as the owner a piece of my mind on many occasions.

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Your place of employment is private property, in such your boss can tell you that you may not, will not and to outright leave if you do not comply.

The choice is yours, you can either not carry there, or find alternative employment, your employer's property rights outweigh your second amendment rights, it's the same deal if a store asks you to leave if your carrying, it's their right to do so because it's their property/business.

I'm in the same cenario at work, I know I will be fired if 'caught' with a gun on the property, even though one of the two owners does own guns. Company policy says not there. If I could carry there I would.

I came to a agreement with my company, I have a security box securely mounted to my car, I stop and secure my gun in the locked box just before I enter their property, and take it out just after leaving. Working on a dead end road does have some advantages

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tdyoung58 wrote:

Your place of employment is private property, in such your boss can tell you that you may not, will not and to outright leave if you do not comply.

The choice is yours, you can either not carry there, or find alternative employment, your employer's property rights outweigh your second amendment rights, it's the same deal if a store asks you to leave if your carrying, it's their right to do so because it's their property/business.

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This is where we disagree. A corporation's property rights do not trump individual rights. A business open to the public is subject to government rules and regulationswhich limit the activities that it can engage in.

Absent a union contract (good luck finding one that will support non-LEOs carrying), however, Pennsylvania is an "at will" employment state so I suspect you would be fired if found out. Only you can determine how much that is worth.

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tdyoung58 wrote:

Your place of employment is private property, in such your boss can tell you that you may not, will not and to outright leave if you do not comply.

The choice is yours, you can either not carry there, or find alternative employment, your employer's property rights outweigh your second amendment rights, it's the same deal if a store asks you to leave if your carrying, it's their right to do so because it's their property/business.

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I totally disagree with you here. A Companies rights do not override my individual rights. The constitution trumps all. The only thing a company (you work at) has on it's side is that PA is an At Will Employment state, so a company could fire you on those grounds. However, unless a company/business plainly posts that firearms are not allowed on the premises, they have no right to force you to leave. They can ask you nicely, but cannot force you.

My whole argument which I have stated before, is that if a company does not provide protection for me, then I have to provide it for myself. Refusing a right to carry is refusing my right to protection when an alternative is not provided for me.

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JSanderbeck wrote:

My whole argument which I have stated before, is that if a company does not provide protection for me, then I have to provide it for myself. Refusing a right to carry is refusing my right to protection when an alternative is not provided for me.

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Why should your compnay provide something the SCOTUS has ruled on 4 different occasions that it's not the job of the police to provide someone. Basically it's your bosses sandbox, you can either stay and play by his rules or take your ball and go home.... unfortunatly that's the ways it is in PA.

I actually agree that we should be able to carry everywhere we go to protect ourselves and our loved ones.....

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JSanderbeck wrote:

Theojt wrote:

However, this brings up a question: If a company denies your right to carry on their premises, do they inherently assume a "duty to protect" by doing so?

If anything happened of a violent nature, I would think it possible to later bring suit based on the fact that they took responsibility for your individual safety by prohibiting you from protecting yourself.

Has this been tested yet in court?

Jeff

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This was primarily where I was going with my original question.

I work at a company that was bought out by an Israeli based firm a few years ago. With the unrest in that area, I would think that a site like ours would be a good place to hack into the network to financially cripple the main branch.

With no carry,no security, and no locks on the doors, it is entirely possible (however unlikely) that we could be an attack point.

If the building was overrun by men with machine guns, who would be responsible for my safety?

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Who would be responsible for your safety? You would.

You make an informed decision each and every day to go unarmed into that building for the purpose of making some money. You are not being forced to work there, you are freely choosing to work there.

The company is only willing to let you come in to make money if you leave your gun outside, it is their perogative as it is their property, they are not being forced to keep you employed, they are freely choosing to keep you on as long as you follow their rules.

So, you have three choices: 1. In return for the money they give you, you spend a certain amount of time each dayabiding by their rules and performing your work, or, 2. You choose not to abide by their rules, arm yourself, andrisk termination of your employment, or 3.You look for employment elsewhere where the company rules better suit you.

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JSanderbeck wrote:

Is this legal in PA?

I am trying to find any reference to this...

Currently, my place of employment states that you cannot have a firearm/weapon on the premises including in your car in the parking lot.

There are no signs posted anywhere, but it is in the employee handbook.

I have a valid LCF for PA, the company does not provide armed personnel for security, nor do they lock the doors during the day.

Since it is an Israeli based company, I would think that there "could" be the possibility of a terror based attack (however unlikely) to strike on an Israeli based company.

Does anyone know anything about this?

John

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Hi John,

I just did research on this in Washington, and here its up to the owner of the company to allow or not to allow. I also found out that a lot of those employ handbooks are a downloaded form from the state here its L&I. When I went to check they told me at first it was illegal to have guns on jobs after requesting the required legislation, we concluded that it wasn't its up to each individual company, and that the safety and employee guidelines are adjustable by the employer. So you might ask head quarters of your company what their personal or corporate policy is. And if it allows you too then you can request them to change the handbook, at a local level. I don't know if this helps or applies but thought I'd give my 1.5 cents.

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same deal where i worked too. nothing locked, everything open, and it was in retail as well. a few of my co-workers that closed at night carried concealed, I personally carried well over a year, but i was a butcher and i had like 3 layers of clothes and a meat smock too. I was finally found out when i cut myself and had to go to the hospital, i stuck it in my coworkers purse when we got to the hospital. she told the boss, but i couldnt be mad at her, after all, she ran me to the hospital.

All i got was a talkingto and that was it. In the process, the words "dont bring a weapon to work" were never said either. There wasnt a written reference to weapons in the handbook anyway--still dont think there is either

lou