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Retention Holsters are for Protection from the Police

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
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SQLTABLES: FYI

Grayling Police Department
Chief of Police
Karl A Schreiner
l03 S James St
Grayling, Michigan 49738
(989)348-4621


Let's wait for SQLTABLES to contact the PD on this. If he gets no results, then perhaps we can havemembers contact him via phone calls and e-mails.
 

Michigander

Regular Member
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Aug 24, 2007
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Mulligan's Valley
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adam40cal wrote:
In all honestly I would have punched him as soon as I felt that tug on my gun; people get real defensive when you start grabing on them.

That does count as assault as far as I know, from my understanding of the law ( I don't have time to look it up right now ) any unwanted contact (unless under the authority of the law) is assault. And him trying to unlawfully take your gun might even be a felony! I"m gonna have to research this one.

Found this here: http://www.mymichigandefenselawyer.com/michigan-criminal-laws/michigan-assault-laws/

Pretty much the closest applicable assault law I can find.

Assault with Intent to Rob and Steal MCL 750.88, 750.89
Your potential sentence when facing a charge of assault with intent to rob and steal depends on whether there was a dangerous weapon involved. If you are found guilty of this crime without a weapon involved you faced the potential punishment of up 15 years in prison. However, if you were in possession of a dangerous weapon at the commission of the crime, you are facing up to a life sentence.

Problem is he acted stupidly in the way he handled it, but I doubt he intended to keep the gun.
 

Hcidem

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316
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RTM Rockford, Michigan, USA
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adam40cal wrote:
In all honestly I would have punched him as soon as I felt that tug on my gun; people get real defensive when you start grabing on them.
...

This line of thought clearly reflects the level of awareness open carriers try to maintain. The LEO's actions seemed to display complete ignorance of the possibility that SQLtablesmight have defended his sidearm. He obviously has given no thought whatsoever to the mindset of an open carrier.

Trying to disarm someone without notice is an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible thing to try. It sounds like something the folks on "Reno 911" might parody.

I doubt this LEO would have let SQLtables leave if he was "certain" that open carry was illegal. Hecertainly thought that there would be no consequences of his ill-advised actions.

SQLtables,I hope you are able to resolve this issue quickly.
 

suntzu

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The south land
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SQLtables wrote:
Well, here it is...

I needed windshield washer fluid for my car, so I decided to stop at the only gas station in Grayling that wasn't packed with cars already. It happened to be the Shell station, and coincidentally there was also a Grayling PD car at one of the pumps. I went in and asked for washer fluid and got a pop. The cop was just walking around the store talking to the female employee.

I went back up to the counter and paid for my items. While she was handing my change back, the officer walked behind me and the next thing I know, I feel a hard pull on my gun. The officer was trying to pull it out of my holster! :what: I swung my arm down to stop this. I turned and looked at thim and said "EXCUSE ME?!?!" Since I use a Serpa, he didn't get my gun out.

He asked "What makes you think you can do that?" and I just responded "the law". At this point, I knew it was a cop, so I just crossed my arms to eliminate the chance of him thinking I was reaching for my gun. He held my gun firmly the entire time I was in there. He never let go until I was walking out. He told me I was "Brandishing a firearm" and that there is no law that states I can carry like that. He even told me that police officers can't even carry like that, which confused me... maybe he meant off duty???

Since he had gone so far as to grab my gun, I assumed he was going to at least put me in cuffs, so I didn't really say a word to him. He apparently assumed I had a CPL because he said "You have a CCW. Use it!" and THEN he asked to see my "CCW". I complied, just to avoid further complications if/when he arrested me.

He said what I was doing was illegal a couple more times and then just told me to cover up from now on. I was surprised he didn't arrest me.. I asked for a business card and he seemed more than happy to give me one, but then he decided that "while we're trading info, let me see that CCW again" and he wrote down all of the info from it.

At that point, I told the employee thank you (after she came back from the other side of the store where she ran to when she saw the cop grab my gun) and walked out and filled my washer fluid and left.

So, I think we're talking assault, being illegally detained, and of course the unexcusable recklessness of the officer by trying to steal my gun. He put me AND the woman at the counter in danger for no reason. He never even announced he was a police officer when he was grabbing my gun. I can't imagine that this behavior is part of any training course.

ETA: I messed up the title :( Maybe it'll magically get fixed?;)
have this "officer" arrested and press charges against him--they are not above the laws.....
 

ghostrider

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Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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Generaldet wrote:
dougwg wrote:
Looks like he has a little head.

I heard his wife says the same thing.;)
Maybe that's why he needs to act like a tough guy.
Crass humor (as well as talk) may inflate personal ego, but if the general public perceives the OC community as a bunch of pigs, then it won't bolster the cause.
 

taxwhat

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2008
Messages
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S E Michgan all mine, Michigan, USA
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ghostrider wrote:
Generaldet wrote:
dougwg wrote:
Looks like he has a little head.

I heard his wife says the same thing.;)
Maybe that's why he needs to act like a tough guy.
Crass humor (as well as talk) may inflate personal ego, but if the general public perceives the OC community as a bunch of pigs, then it won't bolster the cause.
Please do not cut down trees for a bad Apple !
 

suntzu

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Location
The south land
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taxwhat wrote:
ghostrider wrote:
Generaldet wrote:
dougwg wrote:
Looks like he has a little head.

I heard his wife says the same thing.;)
Maybe that's why he needs to act like a tough guy.
Crass humor (as well as talk) may inflate personal ego, but if the general public perceives the OC community as a bunch of pigs, then it won't bolster the cause.
Please do not cut down trees for a bad Apple !
How many bad apples must one have before we realize the obvious? LEOs simply cannot be trusted to do what is right, or to abide by the same laws we are expected to.
 

taxwhat

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2008
Messages
800
Location
S E Michgan all mine, Michigan, USA
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suntzu wrote:
taxwhat wrote:
ghostrider wrote:
Generaldet wrote:
dougwg wrote:
Looks like he has a little head.

I heard his wife says the same thing.;)
Maybe that's why he needs to act like a tough guy.
Crass humor (as well as talk) may inflate personal ego, but if the general public perceives the OC community as a bunch of pigs, then it won't bolster the cause.
Please do not cut down trees for a bad Apple !
How many bad apples must one have before we realize the obvious? LEOs simply cannot be trusted to do what is right, or to abide by the same laws we are expected to.
That's what a sharp chainsaw is for !!!![ lawyer ]
 

ghostrider

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Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
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taxwhat wrote:
ghostrider wrote:
Generaldet wrote:
dougwg wrote:
Looks like he has a little head.

I heard his wife says the same thing.;)
Maybe that's why he needs to act like a tough guy.
Crass humor (as well as talk) may inflate personal ego, but if the general public perceives the OC community as a bunch of pigs, then it won't bolster the cause.
Please do not cut down trees for a bad Apple !
Not trying to cut down any trees. It is what it is.

I recently attended a class with some friends who really aren't into guns, or even concerned with carrying them. The wife isn't even in favor of getting guns, just feisty about her privileges. Thing is, they were on the fence, and are now leaning our way.

They respect the rights of hunters, but don't like the idea itself. They walk into a class with dead critters sitting on the tables where they are expected to eat (knowing that it can't possibly be sanitary), and listen to an instructor who is quite possibly every bad cliche of a gun owner. While they respect hunters rights, they certainly don't want to sit next to a dead animal while eating, and that's just an example.

Fact is, crass and foul language are not well suited to a politically motivated activity. It isn't exactly the best way to win members to our side. I'm not trying to criticize anyone, just pointing out the potential ramifications. No need to shoot the messenger.
 

Dan F.

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
96
Location
Cadillac Area, Michigan, USA
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SQLtables wrote:
Well, here it is...<SNIP> .............He never even announced he was a police officer when he was grabbing my gun. I can't imagine that this behavior is part of any training course.

ETA: I messed up the title :( Maybe it'll magically get fixed?;)
I think the officer made a poor choice. Thanks for sharing this story. I hope you reach a satisfactory conclusion. Iam sure the members of this forumwill want an opportunity to support you as necessary.
 

taxwhat

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Joined
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S E Michgan all mine, Michigan, USA
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ghostrider wrote:
taxwhat wrote:
ghostrider wrote:
Generaldet wrote:
dougwg wrote:
Looks like he has a little head.

I heard his wife says the same thing.;)
Maybe that's why he needs to act like a tough guy.
Crass humor (as well as talk) may inflate personal ego, but if the general public perceives the OC community as a bunch of pigs, then it won't bolster the cause.
Please do not cut down trees for a bad Apple !
Not trying to cut down any trees. It is what it is.

I recently attended a class with some friends who really aren't into guns, or even concerned with carrying them. The wife isn't even in favor of getting guns, just feisty about her privileges. Thing is, they were on the fence, and are now leaning our way.

They respect the rights of hunters, but don't like the idea itself. They walk into a class with dead critters sitting on the tables where they are expected to eat (knowing that it can't possibly be sanitary), and listen to an instructor who is quite possibly every bad cliche of a gun owner. While they respect hunters rights, they certainly don't want to sit next to a dead animal while eating, and that's just an example.

Fact is, crass and foul language are not well suited to a politically motivated activity. It isn't exactly the best way to win members to our side. I'm not trying to criticize anyone, just pointing out the potential ramifications. No need to shoot the messenger.
Well said I concur ...................similar to first impression .
 

Citizen

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Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
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Something seems to be overlooked.

A gun grab istantamount to lethal assault. A number of police officers have been killed when their gun was successfully grabbed.On this forum, one member's LEO father was killed exactly thus.

With the very rare exception of a cop like this,aperson whograbs your gun is almost guaranteed to be acriminal.Once he's got it, he's now a criminal in possession of a gun.The carrier is at his mercy. It is entirely proper in my mind for an armed citizen to respond visciously and instantly to prevent such an attempt from succeeding.

This police department needs to understand that officers put themselves in grave danger when they attempt such nonsense. Just refer them to their own training for the correct response to a gun-grab.

Yes, hammer the other points about attempting an illegal seizure, illegally seizing the OCer (it can't be a voluntary encounter if the cop has his hand on your gun!) And other illegal acts. (Demanding the CCW? Is that legal when the gun is OCd?)

But definitely include the extreme stupidity of such a move and the potential grave danger to anyone who attempts this from behind.
 

Citizen

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Joined
Nov 15, 2006
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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
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I'm sure the OP has already made this decision for himself.

In case any have overlooked it, maintain Condition Yellow. Keep a little attention on any cops in your vicinity so they can't sneak up behind you. And havea finger on the 'record' button of your voice-recorder if there is a cop nearby, figuratively speaking.
 
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