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Thread: Funny rule at Old Dominion University

  1. #1
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    From http://www.odu.edu/ao/facultyhandboo...e=ch06s18.html

    "All semi-automatic firearms shall be carried with an empty breech or firing chamber. All revolvers shall be carried with an empty chamber to the immediate left or right of the barrel, depending on whether the cylinder turns clockwise or counterclockwise, and the chamber under the hammer shall be empty as well, unless the revolver is hammerless."

    I have seen this a few times where the chamber under the hammer must be empty. NASA security used to be required to carry this way back before they carried Glocks.

    So a 5 shot revolver would be reduced to three shots.

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    The obvious solution - go hammerless.

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    HardChrome wrote:
    From http://www.odu.edu/ao/facultyhandboo...e=ch06s18.html

    "All semi-automatic firearms shall be carried with an empty breech or firing chamber. All revolvers shall be carried with an empty chamber to the immediate left or right of the barrel, depending on whether the cylinder turns clockwise or counterclockwise, and the chamber under the hammer shall be empty as well, unless the revolver is hammerless."

    I have seen this a few times where the chamber under the hammer must be empty. NASA security used to be required to carry this way back before they carried Glocks.

    So a 5 shot revolver would be reduced to three shots.
    (Bold added for clairification) A 5 shot revolver would only be allow to carry 4 rounds in it, the chamber under the hammer and the next chamber in the sequence of the rotation would have to be empty. Crazy
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    I know its a funny rule, but at least they are giving ground and allowing guns, hell if restaurants asked that I just leave the chamber unloaded instead of prohibiting them outright I would be more than happy be a paying customer there I can live with that for now.

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    I'm curious about how the University thinks they will administer the empty chamber requirement. I would expect they want all pistols to remain holstered. This usually hampers visual inspection of a chamber's loaded status.

    ODU Police would be breaking search and seizure protections if they were to demand a physical inspection of the firearm.

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    The paragraph right above the one about empty chambers seems to indicate that only by special permission of the university would one be allowed to carry the handgun to begin with. In other words they'll probably always say 'NO!' to #4, so that #5 in the policy is a non-event.

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    It says nothing about alumni!!! :celebrate

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    Nor does it say anything about those in their facilities who are students of a third party as I am this week. I'm taking a programming course from a company who is using one of their classrooms in of their satellite facilities.

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    Sounds like a "feel good" measure for people who are unfamiliar with modern firearms, but heck I wish GMU had that. It's still better than having no gun.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    I can't quite carry on campus yet, but I can get pretty damn close. I've actually carried while walking on Elkhorn Ave. which basically goes "through" the middle of campus.

    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...,0.022724&z=16


    October 29th, 2009

    Old Dominion University Police Department

    Dear Law Enforcement Officers,

    After recent discussions with Old Dominion University Associate Counsel Mr. James Wright concerning the ODU campus boundaries, I have ascertained that certain exterior sidewalks are not considered within the domain of ODU. ODU student policy does not apply in these locations.

    As a resident of 49th street, and a citizen of Virginia, I intend to fully exercise my right to carry a firearm in the manner prescribed by law, where it is legally permissible to do so, and where it does not violate ODU student policy. Such locations are enumerated below, however the following list should not be construed as being comprehensive.

    It is not my intent to carry a firearm on the ODU campus; I do find it frustrating that I am permitted to possess a firearm on any Virginia public university campus other than my own. The possession of a firearm on property adjacent to the ODU campus should not be considered prima facie intent to carry onto the ODU campus.

    Therefore, whereas the sidewalks bordering 43rd St., 49th St., Hampton Blvd., Powhatan Ave., and Monarch Way are Norfolk city property and therefore not within the Old Dominion University campus boundaries, the ODU student policy prohibiting the possession of firearms on campus does not apply. Whereas the ODU student policy has no effect in these locations, and whereas it is not prohibited for a legally qualified individual to carry in these locations, I reserve the right to do so.

    Mr. Wright indicated to me that he would bring up this topic to the ODU Police Chief during his weekly Wednesday meeting with Mr. Burwell. As a result I hope the officers of the ODU Police Department will maintain the decorum that I have come to expect from other Law Enforcement Officers.


    Sincerely,

    Me

    http://www.odu.edu/ao/facultyhandboo...e=ch06s18.html
    http://www.vaag.com/OPINIONS/2006opns/05-078.pdf
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...cod+18.2-308.7
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    The VA Attorney General Opinion about concealed carry on campus really isn't all that applicable to open carry. Concealed Carry is a priveledge and Open Carry is the right.

    The right mentioned in Article I, section 13 of the Virginia Constitution is Open Carry, not concealed carry. Remember that the Virginia legislature has infringed upon the ability to conceal, but not open carry. Permit, permit fee, allows for fingerprinting, disallows in restauraunts, Age of 21 (not 18) to apply.

    It is very interesting that open carry is never mentioned in the attorney general opinion. Universities believe that they can abuse the right because they have an opinion that says they can abuse the priveledge.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    I don't understand how CC has come to be considered a privilage, with OC as a right. Did I miss part of the 2nd amendment which indicates that it must be OC? My understanding was that you have a right to bear arms, not a right to bare arms.

    Carry, of any sort, is a right.

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    Hcidem wrote:
    I'm curious about how the University thinks they will administer the empty chamber requirement. I would expect they want all pistols to remain holstered. This usually hampers visual inspection of a chamber's loaded status.

    ODU Police would be breaking search and seizure protections if they were to demand a physical inspection of the firearm.
    They don't really have to administer it actively. A lot of laws are often used after the fact as a benefit to police, administrators, and prosecution. For example, if you didn't follow the rules and somehow, for whatever reason, your gun goes off accidentally (you or someone or some accidental drop or action causing a discharge, you can be charged in violatoin of the rule requiring no round to be chambered. Which would make it easy to prosecute you for some crime.

    So concealed or unconcealed, if your gun goes off accidentally, it would then be obvious that you were in violation.


    NightOwl wrote:
    I don't understand how CC has come to be considered a privilage, with OC as a right. Did I miss part of the 2nd amendment which indicates that it must be OC? My understanding was that you have a right to bear arms, not a right to bare arms.

    Carry, of any sort, is a right.
    You are exactly right. Carrying any firearm in any manner is our right but through that whole argument about the 10th amendment, states have taken liberty with out 2nd amendment rights (along with many others).

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    t33j wrote:
    ...

    Dear Law Enforcement Officers,

    [etc, etc, etc, ...]

    Sincerely,

    Thomas Mercier Jr.
    Just wondering... did you receive a reply to this letter?

    TFred


  15. #15
    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Sure did.

    Mr. Mercier,

    Associate Counsel Wright did speak to me regarding your intent to carry a firearm on the Norfolk City sidewalks surrounding ODU. I also received your letter regarding this matter.

    You should not have a problem with ODU Police Department if you follow the University's policy as it relates to carrying weapons on campus.
    Chief Burwell,

    Many thanks,
    ...
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    This is effectively what Utah requires if one carries a gun out in public, outside a private vehicle, without a permit. We call it "utah unloaded." Sometimes we call also call it "Israeli Carry" since Israeli military carry their semi-autos without a round in the chamber and are trained to rack the slide as part of unholstering and acquiring the target.

    Utah law is worded such that there must not be a round in firing position and it must require the manual operation of two mechanism to fire the gun.

    On a semi-auto, then, this means empty chamber, but full magazine ok. Rack the slide is action 1, pull the trigger is action 2.

    On a double action, no round in firing position, and next chamber up must be empty. Pull trigger twice to shoot gun as the first pull of the trigger lands hammer on empty cylinder.

    It is then generally agree that with a single action revolver, the chamber in firing position must be empty, but all other chambers may be loaded. The gun cannot be fired without first cocking the hammer (1 action) and then pulling the trigger (2nd action).

    Those with a permit to carry (issued anywhere in the nation) are exempted from this requirement to have their guns "utah unloaded" when carrying them. And just this year we removed limitations on carrying concealed guns and loaded handguns inside a private car without a permit. Long guns continue to have to be unloaded in cars unless you have a permit.

    One step at a time pays off in the long run as long as you keep moving mostly in the right direction.

    I will say one of the best things Utah ever did on RKBA was to adopt very strong State preemption. Colleges, school districts, park and rec, counties and cities simply are not allowed to regulate guns at all except that cities can regulate and limit discharge. We still have battles to fight with tin hat bureaucrats who figure they know best. But with a very strong State preemption law on our side, the outcome of these battles is all but assured to be in our favor.

    Good luck.

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    I read the law and as far as I can tell, you cannot carry a gun on campus at all for the most part.

    Firearms, weapons and related devices may not be carried, maintained or kept anywhere on campus, including in automobiles parked on campus, by employees, students, and volunteers.
    Now there are exemptions of course, family, alumni, and invitees

    “Invitee” means any person other than an employee coming on campus for a business purpose, or in connection with the performance of a contract with the University. Solely for the purpose of this policy, the term does not include members of the general public including family of students, and alumni and former students of the University.

    Looks like you can carry a small knife though as a student(blade less than 3 inches)

    “Weapons,” means knives (other than knives used for domestic purposes, pen or folding knives with blades less than three inches in length, and box cutters, and utility knives kept or carried for use in accordance with the purpose intended by the original seller), machetes, straight razors, spring sticks, metal knucks, blackjacks; any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; any disc, of whatever configuration having at least two points or pointed blades, which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart.


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    What you are referring to is not law, but University regulations. It is not illegal to carry a gun on the campus of a publicly funded university in Virginia. It is against University rules, and if you are a student or employee of the University, a good way to get kicked out / fired. If you are not a member of the University, they have no authority to remove you from University property (with some exceptions).

    I always carry a knife, other students I know always carry a gun... concealed of course.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Just say No! ODU police cannot enforce ODU rules, only the law. The beauty is that most of ODU is on public streets. Just say "no I won't follow any of your silly rules" and make sure your voice recorder is on.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    They will still try I can assure you that.

    I'm an ODU student and that kind of protest wouldn't be worth the hassle. I'll just carry concealed thanks.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    So, to get this right...

    You cannot carry at all onprimary school property,but in Virginia, you can OC/CC at a public university or college in accordance with state laws?

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    mwright wrote:
    So, to get this right...

    You cannot carry at all onÂ*primary school property,Â*but in Virginia, you can OC/CC at a public university or college in accordance with state laws?
    Correct. There is no law prohibiting anyone from doing so.

    It is slightly more complicated with VCU and GMU. ProShooter can clear that up if you've got questions.

    Edit: Almost correct. You can CC with permit in car on (hope I quote this right) public, private, or parochial elementary middle or high schools.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Ok, good to know. I would have carried at ODU if I knew that.

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Go for it. Bring a voice recorder. The ODU PD is aware I carry on public property around ODU but I'm sure they would stop anyone OCing on University property.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    t33j wrote:
    mwright wrote:
    So, to get this right...

    You cannot carry at all onprimary school property,but in Virginia, you can OC/CC at a public university or college in accordance with state laws?
    Correct. There is no law prohibiting anyone from doing so.

    It is slightly more complicated with VCU and GMU. ProShooter can clear that up if you've got questions.

    Edit: Almost correct. You can CC with permit in car on (hope I quote this right) public, private, or parochial elementary middle or high schools.
    IAW Section 18.2 308 you can conceal carry a handgun, but rifles and shotguns must be carried openly in a rifle rack.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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