Spring 2009 Colorado OC BBQ

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Yeah, the 17th works for me too.

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Evil Ernie wrote:

Well we don't want anyone getting all tanked up whilst armed. That just common sense. Me personally I don't imbibe while strapped, but I don't pass judgement on those that have a beer or two.

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Ah, good. I don't even get a mild buzz going while carrying, but some meals just taste better with a beer. It's good to know at least one person won't be on my case about a drink with my sammich.

Evil Ernie wrote:

Size of said piece should be strictly limited to no larger that 105mm towed.

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Damn. Looks like I'm leaving the M91/30 at home.

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Does anyone have any other etiquette to suggest?

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I think the point of this is to paint a pretty picture for observers/exorcise our right to protect ourselves and others. Not necessarily in that order.


Boulder code says Cannot carry a loaded firearm. However this section says..



(a) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating sections 5-8-3, "Discharge of Firearms," 5-8-4, "Possessing and Discharging Firearm or Bow in Park or Open Space," 5-8-5, "Negligently Shooting Bow or Slingshot," 5-8-6, "Aiming Weapon at Another," 5-8-7, "Flourishing Deadly Weapon in Alarming Manner," and 5-8-8, "Possession of Loaded Firearms," B.R.C. 1981, that the defendant was:

(1) Reasonably engaged in lawful self-defense under the statutes of the State of Colorado; or

(2) Reasonably exercising the right to keep and bear arms in defense of the defendant's or another's home, person, and property, or in aid of the civil power when legally thereto summoned.

To me the AND, instead of OR sounds ominous. Is "home" tied to this?

http://www.colocode.com/boulder2/chapter5-8.htm#section5_8_22
Link to firearm section.



For me personally;
No need to show anyonemy piece, noremoving side arm(unless a need arises). If I show in the work dud's, I won't even have a holster, but I will be glad someone is armed for protection! I will show at the BBQ with a holster and a colt. May or may not have a beer. Nobeer ata BBQ is sort of sacrilegious.


Recon on Tue.

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What is the specific law for alcohol consumption and possessing a firearm? I was also under the impression it was none while packing, but apparently I'm mistaken. Is the limit legal intoxication? (.08 or whatever the hell it is... I dunno, I don't drink.)

Is that law different in Virginia, because I do recall one of the new stories on a VCDL BBQ stated there was no alcohol served... were they foregoing alcohol for a more positive image? If so, I suggest we do the same.

AC

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ACEllis wrote:

What is the specific law for alcohol consumption and possessing a firearm? I was also under the impression it was none while packing, but apparently I'm mistaken. Is the limit legal intoxication? (.08 or whatever the hell it is... I dunno, I don't drink.)

Is that law different in Virginia, because I do recall one of the new stories on a VCDL BBQ stated there was no alcohol served... were they foregoing alcohol for a more positive image? If so, I suggest we do the same.

AC

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As far as I've seen the law simply says you can't be "intoxicated" while carrying, without giving a definition. The only place I've seen with a definition is for vehicles, and that limit is .08BAC. I'd think that you could make a good case for that limit applying to weapon carry as well. Of course, they are also running their "zero tolerance" policy when anything above 0.00 will get you a DUI (not sure how that's legal, but there it is).

Now, if anyone is going to drink (and it sounds like there may be a couple, at least at the BBQ), it seems like they are planning on A: stopping at one or two, or B: disarming. I know it's frowned upon, but legal-wise I think it would take one hell of a lawyer to prove that after two beers over the course of an afternoon anyone over the age of 13 would be intoxicated.

If you don't want to drink, by all means don't (but please don't hassle the folks that do). If you do, I'd think you should be fine, but you should be prepared for problems. Of course, you really aught to be prepared for problems anyway.

I am not a lawyer, I have no legal background, just a little research and some common sense.

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Colo doesn't set any limits on intoxication while in possession of firearms, it just says it's illegal under the influence.

18-12-106. Prohibited use of weapons.
(1) A person commits a class 2 misdemeanor if:

(d) The person has in his or her possession a firearm while the person is under the influence of intoxicating liquor or of a controlled substance, as defined in section 12-22-303 (7), C.R.S. Possession of a permit issued under section 18-12-105.1, as it existed prior to its repeal, or possession of a permit or a temporary emergency permit issued pursuant to part 2 of this article is no defense to a violation of this subsection (1).

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Somewhere (I cannot find it at the moment) it lays out what's what for driving while intoxicated. I think it says something along the lines of at 0.00-0.04 BAC you're assumed to be okay unless you fail the roadside tests. at 0.05-0.07 BAC you're "impaired" and may be ticketed/arrested if the officer deems it necessary. At BAC 0.08 and higher you're assumed to be "intoxicated" and will almost certainly be arrested.

ETA: I found the code.

CRS 42-4-1301

(6) (a) In any prosecution for DUI or DWAI, the defendant's BAC at the time of the commission of the alleged offense or within a reasonable time thereafter gives rise to the following presumptions or inferences:

(I) If at such time the defendant's BAC was 0.05 or less, it shall be presumed that the defendant was not under the influence of alcohol and that the defendant's ability to operate a vehicle was not impaired by the consumption of alcohol.

(II) If at such time the defendant's BAC was in excess of 0.05 but less than 0.08, such fact gives rise to the permissible inference that the defendant's ability to operate a vehicle was impaired by the consumption of alcohol, and such fact may also be considered with other competent evidence in determining whether or not the defendant was under the influence of alcohol.

(III) If at such time the defendant's BAC was 0.08 or more, such fact gives rise to the permissible inference that the defendant was under the influence of alcohol.

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I don't know if any LEO's or judges would apply the same levels to drinking & carrying as they do to drinking & driving though.

PS: FogRider beat me to it.

PPS: Found the DUI definitions, posted above

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I'm not trying to come off as Carry Nation and shake my finger at anyone who wants a beer, I have no moralistic clause against it. I'm just interested in reducing the likelihood of a LEO encounter. And as we all know, its not beyond the boys-in-blue to cite non-existent code prohibiting "politically incorrect" legal behavior, such as consumption and possession (of a firearm.) I just don't want our first gathering to earn us all a local media label of the "Boulder Bunch." (See: Dickson Dozen)

Maybe I'm just overly cautious, but I certainly don't think I'm being irrational. Has Boulder PD ever encounter more then one or two OCer's in one place? How would we be perceived? I'd bet a freckled lemonade (did I mention I loved that stuff?) that we do have an officer or two swing by and exchange a few words, but I'll wager it will be brief and we'll never even have to leave our seats.

My commitment to this is 110%, don't get me wrong... I just want this to succeed as smoothly as possible. I hope this is the start of something bigger.

AC

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RR meet sounds like fun.

2580 Arapahoe Ave, 2009 Jan 17 17:00.

(an inadvertent triple post---must be some kind of record)

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Sweet!!!
Looks like this is coming together.
Provided we get a good recon report on Tuesday, it looks like Jan 17th is the date!

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Can we update the original post with the location, date and time so people don't have to search all the pages?

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ACEllis wrote:

I'm not trying to come off as Carry Nation and shake my finger at anyone who wants a beer, I have no moralistic clause against it. I'm just interested in reducing the likelihood of a LEO encounter. And as we all know, its not beyond the boys-in-blue to cite non-existent code prohibiting "politically incorrect" legal behavior, such as consumption and possession (of a firearm.) I just don't want our first gathering to earn us all a local media label of the "Boulder Bunch." (See: Dickson Dozen)

Maybe I'm just overly cautious, but I certainly don't think I'm being irrational. Has Boulder PD ever encounter more then one or two OCer's in one place? How would we be perceived? I'd bet a freckled lemonade (did I mention I loved that stuff?) that we do have an officer or two swing by and exchange a few words, but I'll wager it will be brief and we'll never even have to leave our seats.

My commitment to this is 110%, don't get me wrong... I just want this to succeed as smoothly as possible. I hope this is the start of something bigger.

AC

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I absolutely see where you are coming from, and wouldn't try to change your mind. But I think it need's to be up to each individual as to what they consider an acceptable risk (and that's what it's really about). Could it affect other members (collateral damage)? Possibly. Everyone is always worried about their fellow carriers actions negatively everyone else. What would you say to someone showing up in full mall ninja gear? It has the potential to reflect negatively one all of us, but it's certainly within his rights to do so.

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FogRider wrote:

ACEllis wrote:

I'm not trying to come off as Carry Nation and shake my finger at anyone who wants a beer, I have no moralistic clause against it. I'm just interested in reducing the likelihood of a LEO encounter. And as we all know, its not beyond the boys-in-blue to cite non-existent code prohibiting "politically incorrect" legal behavior, such as consumption and possession (of a firearm.) I just don't want our first gathering to earn us all a local media label of the "Boulder Bunch." (See: Dickson Dozen)

Maybe I'm just overly cautious, but I certainly don't think I'm being irrational. Has Boulder PD ever encounter more then one or two OCer's in one place? How would we be perceived? I'd bet a freckled lemonade (did I mention I loved that stuff?) that we do have an officer or two swing by and exchange a few words, but I'll wager it will be brief and we'll never even have to leave our seats.

My commitment to this is 110%, don't get me wrong... I just want this to succeed as smoothly as possible. I hope this is the start of something bigger.

AC

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I absolutely see where you are coming from, and wouldn't try to change your mind. But I think it need's to be up to each individual as to what they consider an acceptable risk (and that's what it's really about). Could it affect other members (collateral damage)? Possibly. Everyone is always worried about their fellow carriers actions negatively everyone else. What would you say to someone showing up in full mall ninja gear? It has the potential to reflect negatively one all of us, but it's certainly within his rights to do so.

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As long as we all (me included) understand in the eyes of those around us, the one rotten apple could throw out the whole bunch. I'm confident, however; everyone attending will be intelligent and of the highest morale "caliber." Looking forward to meeting everyone for the first time...

Should we have forum handle name tags?

AC

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ACEllis wrote:

As long as we all (me included) understand in the eyes of those around us, the one rotten apple could throw out the whole bunch.

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I think we're on the same page.

Should we have forum handle name tags?

AC

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That wouldn't be a bad idea. I've been to other get togethers based on websites, and name tags were handy. I would keep it simple though, just grab a couple sheets of blank tags, set them on a table with a couple sharpies.

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Grapeshot lobbed a PM my way that I'll repost here.

Send a PM to VCDL President - I'm sure that Philip will point you in the right direction.

We tend to use the "scouting report" technique - a small group tests the waters in a positive community/restaurant before committing larger numbers. See some pictures of other events at http://vagrapeshot.multiply.com/ - click view all.

VCDL events (not restaurant sit downs) are without cost to members and guests - hot dogs, hamburgers, chips, sodas are provided. Members prepare/donate some side dishes and volunteers do the grilling. For some it is their first opportunity to meet and bond with people they only know through the forums.

It might be conceivable to pick up a sponsor to handle some or all of the expense - advertising/tax right off. Definitely invite a speaker, pro-gun politician or similar - they like the exposure, it will tend to help draw out people too.

Check out the VCDL site for a few videos of past events - great fun and fantastic press.

Hope you do it for yourselves and all of the rest of us. Careful though it is habit forming.

Yata hey, Dale

Sounds like they have it down to a science. Could we get two volunteers to be the armed recce team for Red Robin? Unless management has changed, I'd imagine Denwego's thumbs up for their attitude towards OC should still be standing.

Judging from the photos on Dale's site, we'll need some images of the meet for future rendezvous. See if we can't pull some of the lurkers in. I was one for two years before making an account in August.

I really do appreciate you taking the time to message me Grapeshot.

AC

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I enjoy a good cold beer as an appetizer with almost any meal when dining out. I hate it that the Red Top no longer serves beer with their burgers, or Pizza Hut with their pizza's, etc. - BUT.........[here it comes..........]

I really don'tbelieve it is WISE (legal or not) to mix alcohol with a larger public OC event.The "group" cannot prevent any participant from drinking before, during, or after. So it boils down to a personal decision.

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Update thread has been posted and sticky requested.

Can't wait for the recon update!!!

Well put Sandcreek!!! +1

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I've got a small digital camera if you want some discrete picture taking for some reason, and some nicer cameras I can/will bring along with me as well. I don't claim to be a photographer, but through volume I could get a few decent pictures to share.

As for alcohol, could we drop the issue just for the moment? We've pretty much worked out the legal issues, I feel anything else is just going devolve into an opinion shouting match.

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I too want this to go very smooth. If we can get any local officials to show up I'm sure it will be very smooth. If none show up, they'll know right where and when to find us. Then maybe not as smooth as we all would like, but this is about our 1st and 2nd amendment rights. (as well as others). I believe this to all to be legal and a great shot to inform some "Joe the plumber" folks, a LEO or two, with luck an elected official or two,that we need to keep protecting the rights we have left.

We know the media boys, and girls, would use thatpic of a beer in one hand and the other hand on a gun, holstered or not.I'll be sure they don't take that shot at me. It's not a must carry BBQ, it's a support carry if you want to event (I think). I know my wife won't be carrying. I'll most likely bring a friend too, also unarmed. I ass u mewe are all grownups and want this to go well, with many more in the future.

The freckled lemonade thing sounds interesting.I'll look into that as well.

[suP][suB]I, Too, Am Not A Lawyer.[/suB][/suP]