Proposed Open Carry Law

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:celebrateI'm a transplant from La....been here since '84...and, having been raised in an open carry state, am very glad that open carry has been proposed in Tx...for several reasons...

Having had a CC Permit for several years, I'd like the reassurance that if my shirt rides up(I'm a plumber who often works on my back under a sink), I won't lose my permit...that's one reason.

Another is that there are times and locations, like walking from a broken-down car in a bad area, where an open weapon gains enough respect to keep the dogs off...this from experience in La....

I have friends who should be carrying...and can't afford the class and permit...but they're the kind of guys who would do the right thing in handling the responsibility.

Having worked in a pawnshop for 5 years, there were several times when the .45 on my hip stopped trouble...at least one which could have been deadly...just because it was there...and the fact that we carried gave our more timid customers the comfort to shop without fearing the street types...

I see a lot of store owners walking to their cars daily with their bank deposits...totally open to robbery...that's not right....

having lived in both environments...an armed society IS a polite society...whether the gun's on the dashboard or in a holster...folks just don't start trouble...with very few exceptions.



Having said the above, I personally would carry most often concealed...I like the element of surprise...the presence of a weapon does help the intended criminal develop his "pecking order"....and the weapon's not a threatening device...if you grasp it at all, you'd better be ready and justified to use it...otherwise...keep your hands off it...no "cowboy leans" needed.... I believe the majority of our citizens would carry a weapon with the same sense of responsibility as they drive their cars...and the law will deal with the few who are irresponsible....

I would demand that my rookies carry off-duty...won't bore you with the stories why...but, to me, being willing to stand up against evil men bent on major crime is part of our citizen responsibilities...and history is rife with cases where citizens saved officers' or others' lives...with a legally-carried weapon...

I think the shooting public has proven here in Tx, as other states, that we are for the most part responsible, serious-minded, and have lowered the crime rate considerably...often without the help of any LEOs, who are NOT responsible for our safety...we are...

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sheepdog wrote:

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Having said the above, I personally would carry most often concealed...I like the element of surprise...the presence of a weapon does help the intended criminal develop his "pecking order"....and the weapon's not a threatening device...if you grasp it at all, you'd better be ready and justified to use it...otherwise...keep your hands off it...no "cowboy leans" needed.... I believe the majority of our citizens would carry a weapon with the same sense of responsibility as they drive their cars...and the law will deal with the few who are irresponsible....

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Maybeyoucould elaborate on this point, as I have never understood the practical advantage of surprise to someone ina defensive mindset.

I compare it to a home alarm system; carrying concealed would be like installing an ADT system, but not putting the lawn or window signs up. It looks just like any other house, and it's protected, but a burglar has to break a window before figuring that out. By contrast, open carry, like putting the signs in place, gives a would-be criminal fair notice to look elsewhere.

The element of surprise, IMO,is most advantageous when attacking. Yes, defense can include a counter-attack, but I hear of the element of surprise and I think of surprise attacks, not surprise defenses. As amusing as it might be to have a thug experience a mental and physical 180 when you draw a gun he didn't know you had, it's an unnecessary risk, given that if you were carrying openly the attack would not even have begun.

Criminals do not want a fair fight. Concealed carry does make it difficult or impossible to know if someone else will be able to stand up to them, but the overall chances thatan intended victim is carryingare 1 in 100, and most criminals will take that risk. Open carry guarantees that the criminal will not be able to have his own way.

As far as the risk of "OC = first casualty", I disagree with that assessment for two reasons. First, many criminals get "tunnel vision"; it's a natural consequence of heightened adrenaline. An armed robber is more likely to be focusing on his goal -the cashier andtheir money- than on anyone around him. I have only anecdotal evidence, but there have been many cases where a robbery was averted because the robber didn't know someone else around themwas armed; the funniest one was a guy holding up a convenience store right next to a sheriff's deputy.Second, any gun carrier worth his salt will heed the teachings of St Cooper, and maintain a Condition Yellow state of awareness at all times while carrying. A man casting shifty glares in all directions, or who is headed toward you, eyes on you, can be quickly picked up, typed, and confronted before they become a real threat.

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When I carry concealed, I have the option to become involved in something or not...if a perp spots the gun, I am involved because he perceives the threat to his goal being reached...carrying concealed gives you more time to see the whole picture before action and that tunnel vision affect you...if the situation...like a store robbery...can be played out without gunplay, getting a good description and the license plate without endangering the clerk or others may be better than shooting the suspect...even when the shooting is justified...them not seeing your weapon gives you that choice...

From years of both life and law enforcement experience, the element of surprise applies very much to defense...whether it's a young lady who's approached by two men to grab her and do her harm, or a citizen(or off-duty officer) being able to choose his/her moment to move...instead of being dropped into the hopper because their visible weapon alerted the perp...it can go, and does go, both ways....

Today's criminal is not intimidated by ADT signs or bright lights...especially in a town like Dallas where, when I lived there a few years back, response time was slow...they know they have time to do what they came to do and leave before anyone shows up to stop them...hence the home invasions are growing more and more..the TV ads where the perp looks like he peed his pants and runs are just that...ads...as are the "hero" types at the alarm switchboard saying "Help is on the way"....you are your own help...at least for the first few minutes...

The presence of a holstered gun just doesn't deter perps like it used to...they've had more experience shooting than the old days...they much more often elect to shoot at a uniformed officer...they just don't fear like they used to in the days when you really wouldn't get hurt if you gave up your money...now, they're macho and want to shoot...and may have been walking around watching who and what is there before making their move...open carry doesn't guarantee anything other than that you have a gun on your hip...until someone walks up, puts theirs in your back, and takes it....it can happen even when you're alert...even experienced cops have been shot with their own gun...yanked from their holster from behind...I know one...your back is often toward an undetermined threat...

Jeff Cooper, much as we miss him, was just a man...and told us what to do in a best case scenario...just like police training or CCW permit training...it can't encompass all situations...and we...no matter how good we are...can't spot everything...so, in most instances...even with an Open Carry law which I hope we get...I'll be carrying concealed...looking as little like a trained, experienced armed citizen as I can...until I choose to let someone know otherwise...

As to "drawing a gun"...with any thought of"amusing" myself...I find that repugnant...I believe that if it becomes necessary to draw a weapon...concealed or not...the time for scaring someone is long past and the draw should be part of the firing...there is no fun in, or justification for...pointing a gun at a person...and that's from long years of experience doing that....I'm not a cop anymore...and if I weren't going to stop them immediately...they would never see a gun on me...I recently took a gun from a young man who'd accidently fired it in a restaurant full of people...while it was in his pocket...held him for and turned him and his gun over to the police...and he never knew I was armed...different situations call for different solutions....no mindset can guarantee success...we're just men who care enough to try to make a difference...

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Sheepdog, glad to have you here - welcome!

When I carry concealed, I have the option to become involved in something or not...if a perp spots the gun, I am involved because he perceives the threat to his goal being reached..

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As much as I've heard the 'element of surprise' argument, this has been the best explanation of that position. From other arguments, the message that is normally conveyed is that of a "tactical surprise!" similar to the turning point in a Hollywood movie where the good guy gains the upper hand in the conflict.


What does stick out to me, both in the OC vc CC debate, and in your quote above is the word OPTION. I think that is important.

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Shorts wrote:

Sheepdog, glad to have you here - welcome!

When I carry concealed, I have the option to become involved in something or not...if a perp spots the gun, I am involved because he perceives the threat to his goal being reached..

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As much as I've heard the 'element of surprise' argument, this has been the best explanation of that position. From other arguments, the message that is normally conveyed is that of a "tactical surprise!" similar to the turning point in a Hollywood movie where the good guy gains the upper hand in the conflict.


What does stick out to me, both in the OC vc CC debate, and in your quote above is the word OPTION. I think that is important.

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As do I.

I do now understand sheepdog's desire to remain concealed as well as his use of "surprise"; It is a definiteadvantage, as he said, to be able to pick one's battles.However, I think options are important too, and I want the option to conceal OR openly carry my handgun as I choose. The ability to appear normal has advantages in some situations; the ability to NOT appear normal has advantages in others. No matter what anyone else's choice is, it is a choice that 75% of U.S. citizens have the right to make without fees, licenses or government permission, and yet it is being denied to me in a state considered by most to be the most gun-friendly in the Union.

Sheepdog, I think you overestimate the number of criminals who would shoot at an armed civilian. Being a policeman offers a rather biased view (I mean no offense)for a couple of reasons. First, your job often entails finding and arresting people who have already committed a crime. Having done so, they often feel they have little left to lose, and so are more likely to shoot at officers coming to arrest them. At that point they can't avoid trouble, and certainly not by going quietly. By contrast, an armed civilian, no matter how obvious, is not looking for trouble like a police officer is paid to do. Neither is the criminal;not that kind of trouble, that fast, anyway.That's why virtually every one of therecent mass murders making national news have taken place in locations that ban guns; the gunman knows that at least until SWAT shows up, they're the only one with a gun in that place. There are numerous storiesin the True Tales forumof membersbeing approached by unsavory types who broke off very quickly when they saw a holstered gun. Thosethugs would not have seen a concealed weapon until it was drawn; that means that the carrier would have needed sufficientreason to draw it in order for it to have had any discouraging effect, meaning the thug could have closed to a dangerous distance before being shown the error of his ways. This is Exhibit A that OC has value.

Second, being a policeman means you see a far higher proportion of crimes than the average joe. While that gives you quite a bit of experience to draw from, I would posit that it skews your perceptions. When you see a lot of crime scenes, you see a lot of uncommon crime situationsincluding scenes where the criminal was not deterred by a professional alarm system. While it was an analogy to begin with and not a 1:1 allegory, the idea that a 110dB alarm blaring outto the rest of theneighborhood (a standard feature of Brinks and ADT systems) would not discourage a criminal seems ludicrous to me, except in two cases; when the criminal is certain they can get what they came for and get out in a matter of seconds, or when they don't care what happens to them after they've done their evil deed. A crime of passion, or a well-planned job, is not going to be discouraged so easily, you're exactly right.

Most crimes are those of opportunity. An unlocked door, a grab and go, a stickup of an unarmed clerk,or a sidewalk robbery/rape at nightare crimes thatappear to be easy pickings and are pursued for that very reason. Those are the types of crimes that are deterred by increased security, and by increased visibility of security. It's the reason security devices exist; none are infallible, but how long it takes to defeat them, and the chance the criminal will fail to do so, cause the criminal to seek easier prey. OC has a proven deterrent effect in those circumstances because it provides increased visibility of security; the criminal knows his chances of success are lower the more security he sees.These crimesmake up a majority of the crimes committed against people outside their home, and therefore the ability to open carry is necessary asa handgunis the most effective portable form of personal security available, and to advertise its presence will significantly reduce the chances that an open carrier will even have a crime attempted against them.

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sheepdog - welcome!

I think you articulated your opinions and speculations very well. My opinions/speculations are a little different so I addressed them below.

sheepdog wrote:

When I carry concealed, I have the option to become involved in something or not...if a perp spots the gun, I am involved because he perceives the threat to his goal being reached...carrying concealed gives you more time to see the whole picture before action and that tunnel vision affect you...if the situation...like a store robbery...can be played out without gunplay, getting a good description and the license plate without endangering the clerk or others may be better than shooting the suspect...even when the shooting is justified...them not seeing your weapon gives you that choice...

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You may or many not have the option to be involved. The perp will most likely make that decision for you; he will decide if you have the option, regardless of whether you are armed or not. If you open carry, you could have possibly averted the situation entirely – thus no option necessary. And to me aversion, is a much better choice than being a witness.

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Today's criminal is not intimidated by ADT signs or bright lights...especially in a town like Dallas where, when I lived there a few years back, response time was slow...they know they have time to do what they came to do and leave before anyone shows up to stop them...hence the home invasions are growing more and more..the TV ads where the perp looks like he peed his pants and runs are just that...ads...as are the "hero" types at the alarm switchboard saying "Help is on the way"....you are your own help...at least for the first few minutes...

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I do not believe this to be true. Are you aware of any crime statistics that show ADT signs or bright lights are ineffective? I would be very interested in seeing these, or understanding how you draw this conclusion.

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The presence of a holstered gun just doesn't deter perps like it used to...they've had more experience shooting than the old days...they much more often elect to shoot at a uniformed officer...they just don't fear like they used to in the days when you really wouldn't get hurt if you gave up your money...now, they're macho and want to shoot...and may have been walking around watching who and what is there before making their move...open carry doesn't guarantee anything other than that you have a gun on your hip...until someone walks up, puts theirs in your back, and takes it....it can happen even when you're alert...even experienced cops have been shot with their own gun...yanked from their holster from behind...I know one...your back is often toward an undetermined threat...

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Again, I do not believe this is true. Crime statistics addressing this would be very helpful. From what I know there are approx. 226 million people who are allowed to open carry, most all LEO’s open carry (roughly 740,000 in US). You would think the bodies would be piling up like cord wood from all these folks having their guns stolen and shot with them.

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As to "drawing a gun"...with any thought of"amusing" myself...I find that repugnant...I believe that if it becomes necessary to draw a weapon...concealed or not...the time for scaring someone is long past and the draw should be part of the firing...there is no fun in, or justification for...pointing a gun at a person...and that's from long years of experience doing that....I'm not a cop anymore...and if I weren't going to stop them immediately...they would never see a gun on me...I recently took a gun from a young man who'd accidently fired it in a restaurant full of people...while it was in his pocket...held him for and turned him and his gun over to the police...and he never knew I was armed...different situations call for different solutions....no mindset can guarantee success...we're just men who care enough to try to make a difference...

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This is interesting – so how many times did you pull you weapon (and thus fire) when you were a cop? Do all cops fire each time they pull their weapon?

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Good post's im enjoying all the diversity, i just have one thing to say


Liko81
wrote
Sheepdog, I think you overestimate the number of criminals who would shoot at an armed civilian. Being a policeman offers a rather biased view (I mean no offense)for a couple of reasons.

He is no longer an LEO from what i believe he wrote.

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Conagher wrote:

sheepdog - welcome!

I think you articulated your opinions and speculations very well. My opinions/speculations are a little different so I addressed them below.

sheepdog wrote:

When I carry concealed, I have the option to become involved in something or not...if a perp spots the gun, I am involved because he perceives the threat to his goal being reached...carrying concealed gives you more time to see the whole picture before action and that tunnel vision affect you...if the situation...like a store robbery...can be played out without gunplay, getting a good description and the license plate without endangering the clerk or others may be better than shooting the suspect...even when the shooting is justified...them not seeing your weapon gives you that choice...

Click to expand...

You may or many not have the option to be involved. The perp will most likely make that decision for you; he will decide if you have the option, regardless of whether you are armed or not. If you open carry, you could have possibly averted the situation entirely – thus no option necessary. And to me aversion, is a much better choice than being a witness.

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In a robbery situation...where it is not necessary to act...or where it would put others in danger more than to let the robber get his money and leave without being challenged..it is my choice to let him do so and no gunfire is likely....if he walks in with gun in hand and spots my open carried gun...he is much more likely to open fire...with no warning...before I even notice him...if I'm in line or shopping....it could go either way...if he were to just walk in and start shooting, concealed has no advantage other than I might not be the first one he shoots....

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Today's criminal is not intimidated by ADT signs or bright lights...especially in a town like Dallas where, when I lived there a few years back, response time was slow...they know they have time to do what they came to do and leave before anyone shows up to stop them...hence the home invasions are growing more and more..the TV ads where the perp looks like he peed his pants and runs are just that...ads...as are the "hero" types at the alarm switchboard saying "Help is on the way"....you are your own help...at least for the first few minutes...

Click to expand...

I do not believe this to be true. Are you aware of any crime statistics that show ADT signs or bright lights are ineffective? I would be very interested in seeing these, or understanding how you draw this conclusion.

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you can research the average response time where you live..you can research the bright lights part...I've only repaired the doors and windows after the burglaries where the lights were on....it's common knowledge today that folks use the signs to deter whether they have alarms or not, and the average burglar or home invasion team isn't in the home long enough for a response by police or security company....you can research the stories of home invasions to see how long they take...if you really want to...and you can trust your family to bright lights, alarms, and signs, if you want to...I'm stating my opinions based on what I've seen over 35 years...

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The presence of a holstered gun just doesn't deter perps like it used to...they've had more experience shooting than the old days...they much more often elect to shoot at a uniformed officer...they just don't fear like they used to in the days when you really wouldn't get hurt if you gave up your money...now, they're macho and want to shoot...and may have been walking around watching who and what is there before making their move...open carry doesn't guarantee anything other than that you have a gun on your hip...until someone walks up, puts theirs in your back, and takes it....it can happen even when you're alert...even experienced cops have been shot with their own gun...yanked from their holster from behind...I know one...your back is often toward an undetermined threat...

Click to expand...

Again, I do not believe this is true. Crime statistics addressing this would be very helpful. From what I know there are approx. 226 million people who are allowed to open carry, most all LEO’s open carry (roughly 740,000 in US). You would think the bodies would be piling up like cord wood from all these folks having their guns stolen and shot with them.

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Crime statistics are compiled by the FBI and local agencies that you can access if you care to...you can find out how many cops have been shot with their own weapon...your own statistics are not based on any personal knowledge..though there are perhaps 226 million people who are allowed to open carry...only a tiny fraction of those do...and "most all" LEOs don't open carry...a great many in all agencies routinely carry concealed...on and off duty...your reference to "bodies piling up like cordwood"..."all these folks" both distorts what I clearly said and shows your desire to argue and pick, rather than carefully read and consider, what I posted.

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As to "drawing a gun"...with any thought of"amusing" myself...I find that repugnant...I believe that if it becomes necessary to draw a weapon...concealed or not...the time for scaring someone is long past and the draw should be part of the firing...there is no fun in, or justification for...pointing a gun at a person...and that's from long years of experience doing that....I'm not a cop anymore...and if I weren't going to stop them immediately...they would never see a gun on me...I recently took a gun from a young man who'd accidently fired it in a restaurant full of people...while it was in his pocket...held him for and turned him and his gun over to the police...and he never knew I was armed...different situations call for different solutions....no mindset can guarantee success...we're just men who care enough to try to make a difference...

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Since you have trouble understanding my post, I'll explain it: my belief about not drawing and pointing a gun unless you're justified in shooting and that you do not point a gun to intimidate someone...are based in law...at least where I live...and my choice for not pointing a gun to intimidate someone is my own....whether you like it or not....you miss the part where I said "I'm not a cop anymore"...it's not my business to arrest or hold people at gunpoint...I had that to do many times as an officer and I don't now...How you read into what I said that, as a cop, I fired anytime I pulled my weapon...only you know...your question about all cops firing each time they pull their weapon is ignorant, asinine, and combative...further displaying your argumentative and sarcasticattitude...argue with someone else...maybe after you do your research...that is not why I'm here...

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This is interesting – so how many times did you pull you weapon (and thus fire) when you were a cop? Do all cops fire each time they pull their weapon?

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sheepdog wrote:

Conagher wrote:

sheepdog - welcome!

I think you articulated your opinions and speculations very well. My opinions/speculations are a little different so I addressed them below.

sheepdog wrote:

When I carry concealed, I have the option to become involved in something or not...if a perp spots the gun, I am involved because he perceives the threat to his goal being reached...carrying concealed gives you more time to see the whole picture before action and that tunnel vision affect you...if the situation...like a store robbery...can be played out without gunplay, getting a good description and the license plate without endangering the clerk or others may be better than shooting the suspect...even when the shooting is justified...them not seeing your weapon gives you that choice...

Click to expand...

You may or many not have the option to be involved. The perp will most likely make that decision for you; he will decide if you have the option, regardless of whether you are armed or not. If you open carry, you could have possibly averted the situation entirely – thus no option necessary. And to me aversion, is a much better choice than being a witness.

Click to expand...

In a robbery situation...where it is not necessary to act...or where it would put others in danger more than to let the robber get his money and leave without being challenged..it is my choice to let him do so and no gunfire is likely....if he walks in with gun in hand and spots my open carried gun...he is much more likely to open fire...with no warning...before I even notice him...if I'm in line or shopping....it could go either way...if he were to just walk in and start shooting, concealed has no advantage other than I might not be the first one he shoots....

Click to expand...

Today's criminal is not intimidated by ADT signs or bright lights...especially in a town like Dallas where, when I lived there a few years back, response time was slow...they know they have time to do what they came to do and leave before anyone shows up to stop them...hence the home invasions are growing more and more..the TV ads where the perp looks like he peed his pants and runs are just that...ads...as are the "hero" types at the alarm switchboard saying "Help is on the way"....you are your own help...at least for the first few minutes...

Click to expand...

I do not believe this to be true. Are you aware of any crime statistics that show ADT signs or bright lights are ineffective? I would be very interested in seeing these, or understanding how you draw this conclusion.

Click to expand...

you can research the average response time where you live..you can research the bright lights part...I've only repaired the doors and windows after the burglaries where the lights were on....it's common knowledge today that folks use the signs to deter whether they have alarms or not, and the average burglar or home invasion team isn't in the home long enough for a response by police or security company....you can research the stories of home invasions to see how long they take...if you really want to...and you can trust your family to bright lights, alarms, and signs, if you want to...I'm stating my opinions based on what I've seen over 35 years...

Click to expand...

The presence of a holstered gun just doesn't deter perps like it used to...they've had more experience shooting than the old days...they much more often elect to shoot at a uniformed officer...they just don't fear like they used to in the days when you really wouldn't get hurt if you gave up your money...now, they're macho and want to shoot...and may have been walking around watching who and what is there before making their move...open carry doesn't guarantee anything other than that you have a gun on your hip...until someone walks up, puts theirs in your back, and takes it....it can happen even when you're alert...even experienced cops have been shot with their own gun...yanked from their holster from behind...I know one...your back is often toward an undetermined threat...

Click to expand...

Again, I do not believe this is true. Crime statistics addressing this would be very helpful. From what I know there are approx. 226 million people who are allowed to open carry, most all LEO’s open carry (roughly 740,000 in US). You would think the bodies would be piling up like cord wood from all these folks having their guns stolen and shot with them.

Click to expand...

Crime statistics are compiled by the FBI and local agencies that you can access if you care to...you can find out how many cops have been shot with their own weapon...your own statistics are not based on any personal knowledge..though there are perhaps 226 million people who are allowed to open carry...only a tiny fraction of those do...and "most all" LEOs don't open carry...a great many in all agencies routinely carry concealed...on and off duty...your reference to "bodies piling up like cordwood"..."all these folks" both distorts what I clearly said and shows your desire to argue and pick, rather than carefully read and consider, what I posted.

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As to "drawing a gun"...with any thought of"amusing" myself...I find that repugnant...I believe that if it becomes necessary to draw a weapon...concealed or not...the time for scaring someone is long past and the draw should be part of the firing...there is no fun in, or justification for...pointing a gun at a person...and that's from long years of experience doing that....I'm not a cop anymore...and if I weren't going to stop them immediately...they would never see a gun on me...I recently took a gun from a young man who'd accidently fired it in a restaurant full of people...while it was in his pocket...held him for and turned him and his gun over to the police...and he never knew I was armed...different situations call for different solutions....no mindset can guarantee success...we're just men who care enough to try to make a difference...

Click to expand...

Since you have trouble understanding my post, I'll explain it: my belief about not drawing and pointing a gun unless you're justified in shooting and that you do not point a gun to intimidate someone...are based in law...at least where I live...and my choice for not pointing a gun to intimidate someone is my own....whether you like it or not....you miss the part where I said "I'm not a cop anymore"...it's not my business to arrest or hold people at gunpoint...I had that to do many times as an officer and I don't now...How you read into what I said that, as a cop, I fired anytime I pulled my weapon...only you know...your question about all cops firing each time they pull their weapon is ignorant, asinine, and combative...further displaying your argumentative and sarcasticattitude...argue with someone else...maybe after you do your research...that is not why I'm here...

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This is interesting – so how many times did you pull you weapon (and thus fire) when you were a cop? Do all cops fire each time they pull their weapon?

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Wow sheepdog, are you always this confrontational when some disagrees with your opinions? You should have just stated in your original posts that “this is my opinion and I do not want to hear anyone else’s”. But if that was the case, why even post at all?



Have a nice day; and you may want to try a little Geritol – works for me!

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...right...and may I recommend ExLax to you...your "discussion" was full of sarcasm and wild exxageration...not mature discussion about difference of opinion...

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sheepdog wrote:

...right...and may I recommend ExLax to you...your "discussion" was full of sarcasm and wild exxageration...not mature discussion about difference of opinion...

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Thanks, but as mentioned above Geritol works for me.

May I suggest that you not concern yourself with OC vs. CC, but consider whether you should be carrying at all. A good anger managment class my be more appropriate.

Have a nice day!

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Gentlemen, please! If I want to listen to this I'll put on C-Span and listen to debates in the House of Commons. While I happen not to agree with sheepdog, he makes a good argument.