Exchange with Waukesha City PD

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Welcome a-board

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You guys have posted some really good information in this forum. I have been reading intermittently for the past few months, and would like to thank you all (especially the poor guy in West Allis) for what you're doing.

I would like to help, but unfortunately I can't offer any financial backing at this time. Do you guys have any organized meetings, or is it all online?



Thanks,

Geoff

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Geoff wrote:

You guys have posted some really good information in this forum. I have been reading intermittently for the past few months, and would like to thank you all (especially the poor guy in West Allis) for what you're doing.

I would like to help, but unfortunately I can't offer any financial backing at this time. Do you guys have any organized meetings, or is it all online?

Thanks, Geoff

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The Wisconsin 'Patriots' have tried meetings. This forum is a means of communication only and not of social networking.

Wisconsonite? Where? Edit your profile to show please.

Welcome. Merry Christmas GOD JUL

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smithman wrote:

Here is an exchange with the Waukesha City Chief of Police over email. I avoid talking to LEOs but figured this could have value to OC in the city here.

Chief Sharrock,

I am writing you on the issue of open carry of firearms. Under the Wisconsin constitution Article 1 Section 25, "The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation, or any other lawful purpose." Also you are likely aware that concealed carry of a firearm is prohibited except for peace officers. Therefore, the only means to exercise one's right to bear arms is to carry a firearm openly. For instance, hunters use this right in order to hunt with firearms.

It is also likely that you are aware of the state firearm preemption law (chapter 66.0409) which prohibits municipalities from regulating the keeping, bearing, transportation, etc, of firearms in a manner which is more stringent than state law. This makes any local ordinances about bearing (carrying) firearms null and void. Therefore, state regulations against bearing arms in places such as government buildings, schools, and taverns apply statewide.

I wish to understand how your department deals with a lawfully armed citizen who is openly carrying for his or her own personal security. This is classified as a person who is legally carrying a handgun in a holster which is in plain view. It is important to note that criminals do not carry firearms in this manner. I can appreciate that "man with a gun" calls to police may be an unintended consequence of citizens bearing arms openly. I can also appreciate that any responding officers would approach the situation with caution. However, citizens have no other legal option in which to exercise their rights.

In the absence of illegal activity being perpetrated by the armed person who is open carrying a firearm in a non-prohibited area, how are officers trained to handle this situation? Obviously, this question is not a trap or a blank check for having every Waukesha citizen openly carrying for no good reason. I simply wish to understand...

Kindest Regards,


________________________________


Regarding open carry:

I am in my 43rd year of law enforcement and in my 30th year as a Chief of Police and have worked as a police officer in 3 different states, Calif., MN and WI. My position now is the same as it has always been. If it is permissible by law to carry a firearm openly or concealed then my job is to honor and enforce the laws of my community and state.

As to carrying a firearm openly I am always concerned as to any public and/or reaction by the public or members of my police department. As you can well understand, safety for our citizens and police officers is first and foremost. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to understand one's reaction to someone carrying a firearm in the open and in public as it will certainly generate and cause a stir should someone walk into a bank, store, tavern or, just be walking down a public street while carrying such a weapon in the open.

A response by the police to a call generated by a member of the public or, by an individual observation by a police officer of someone carrying a firearm openly would naturally, be one of caution and of a safety concern of a potential threat. Should that happen, and a person is determined to be within the parameters of the law then there would be no reason for any enforcement action unless there is other accompanying circumstances to dictate otherwise.

[/b]It has been a RARE situation where, in my nearly 43 years of law enforcement that a situation such as someone carrying a handgun in a holster carried openly on a person's hip for example, and merely walking around in a public area has occurred. The few times I recall it happening has resulted in both, no enforcement being taken and, enforcement being taken. It depended on the total circumstances that presented itself.

Thank you for your inquiry.

Les Sharrock
Chief of Police
Waukesha Police Department

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Why don't you just invite him to lunch and carry openlyto discuss it politely like civilized men?

This is not rocket science.

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here's the response i finally got back from Chief Morrissey:

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The questions you pose in your email have been asked before and I have attached the response that has been provided to these questions from the City Attorney. However, I will reiterate a comment offered by the City Attorney, that you need have little fear of arrest if you are not breaking/have not broken the law.
Chief Morrissey

Thank you for you letter addressed to Chief John W. Morrissey. Chief Morrissey has forwarded your letter to my attention for reply.
At this point, I cannot, and will not, respond to hypothetical questions that do not provide an adequate factual premise for a response. I am, however, prepared to assure you that the laws of the State of Wisconsin and the City of Kenosha will be rigorously enforced by the Kenosha Police. I will, further, offer that you need have little fear of arrest if you are not breaking/have not broken the law.
As you must know, the Constitutional right to keep and bare arms is not unrestricted. Your legal analysis notwithstanding, I believe it is well established and accepted that governmental entities may restrict the conditions under which one may own, carry and / or use a firearm. As a gun owner, it is your responsibility to know, understand, and comply with the law. If you meet this responsibility, your letter to Chief Morrissey is unnecessary. If you do not, you may, again, expect any and all laws regarding the possession and use of weapons to be strictly enforced.
I hope this information is helpful to you.

Sincerely,
Patrick J. Sheehan
City Attorney

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Delta_RT wrote:

here's the response i finally got back from Chief Morrissey:

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The questions you pose in your email have been asked before and I have attached the response that has been provided to these questions from the City Attorney. However, I will reiterate a comment offered by the City Attorney, that you need have little fear of arrest if you are not breaking/have not broken the law.
Chief Morrissey

Thank you for you letter addressed to Chief John W. Morrissey. Chief Morrissey has forwarded your letter to my attention for reply.
At this point, I cannot, and will not, respond to hypothetical questions that do not provide an adequate factual premise for a response. I am, however, prepared to assure you that the laws of the State of Wisconsin and the City of Kenosha will be rigorously enforced by the Kenosha Police. I will, further, offer that you need have little fear of arrest if you are not breaking/have not broken the law.
As you must know, the Constitutional right to keep and bare arms is not unrestricted. Your legal analysis notwithstanding, I believe it is well established and accepted that governmental entities may restrict the conditions under which one may own, carry and / or use a firearm. As a gun owner, it is your responsibility to know, understand, and comply with the law. If you meet this responsibility, your letter to Chief Morrissey is unnecessary. If you do not, you may, again, expect any and all laws regarding the possession and use of weapons to be strictly enforced.
I hope this information is helpful to you.

Sincerely,
Patrick J. Sheehan
City Attorney

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]

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Well there's a response that says nothing. He could have used fewer words to say, "If you break the law, we'll enforce it. If you don't break the law, we won't do anything." Well, duh, that's sort of what they're paid to do.

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Delta_RT wrote:

SNIP here's the response i finally got back from Chief Morrissey:

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You know, that's the sort of response that just well and truly pisses me off.

There is a degree of threat it, in my view.

The careful avoidance of discussing the actual issue just leaves open the very concerns we have--enforcement thru whatever loopholes they perceive or think they can get away with.

I would be inclined to write back something along the lines:



Dear Sir,

Your arrogance is stunning. You are subject to the very same laws. You are nota law-giver to be assuring me of rigorous enforcement.

Thank you for revealing your attitude and position.

Signed,

Unintimidated Equal.

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Shotgun wrote:

Well there's a response that says nothing. He could have used fewer words to say, "If you break the law, we'll enforce it. If you don't break the law, we won't do anything." Well, duh, that's sort of what they're paid to do.

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that's pretty much how i felt about it. waited almost two weeks just for him to say that. they're too afraid to come out and say that it's legal.:cuss:

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Delta_RT wrote:

Shotgun wrote:

Well there's a response that says nothing. He could have used fewer words to say, "If you break the law, we'll enforce it. If you don't break the law, we won't do anything." Well, duh, that's sort of what they're paid to do.

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that's pretty much how i felt about it. waited almost two weeks just for him to say that. they're too afraid to come out and say that it's legal.:cuss:

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Delta, GJD is an OCDO member and has open carried in Kenosha successfully, and was once detained. Go to page 5 or 6 of the wisconsin forum page and find "detained by kenosha police".

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wow! a wealth of information and conversation in that thread. Thanks for the reference Smithman.

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At this point, I cannot, and will not, respond to hypothetical questions that do not provide an adequate factual premise for a response. I am, however, prepared to assure you that the laws of the State of Wisconsin and the City of Kenosha will be rigorously enforced by the Kenosha Police. I will, further, offer that you need have little fear of arrest if you are not breaking/have not broken the law.

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This is such a lame cop-out excuse for an answer.

This is not a hypothetical question. This is a request for clarification of THIS departments INTERPRETATION of the law. As with Disorderly Conduct is subject to interpretation SO differently by different departments.

Where are we when we can't call on the police/city government and get and HONEST answer... devoid of ambiguity.

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Delta RT -



That is the same e-mail response that I got from Chief Morrissey a few months back and posted.. Basically not saying anything either way. The city attorney and district attorney also did not really say anything other than expect a police response and dont do anything illegal, etc.

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I suggest, that instead of soliciting opinions from the police, city attorneys and district attorneys, that WE start offering OUR advice and opinions to THEM.

E.g., "You are telling me to know the law and do not do anything illegal. Fine, tell your OFFICERS to also know the law and to not approach people who are not clearly breaking any law with guns drawn. Do not advise us or suggest to us that exercising our constitutional rights could have vague dire consequences. You are hired to, and have taken an oath to PROTECT our constitutional rights, not to try to dissuade us from the exercise of our rights nor to suggest when or where we exercise them.

Remember, these people work for US, not the other way around. We have the right to tell them how we expect them to behave. "To serve and protect."

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well, i waited a few days to make sure i was thinking straight, and here's what i ended up replying with:
(thanks for the quote in there, Hugh. I liked it enough to keep it 'as is.')

----------
Chief Morrissey,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I would, however, like to take a moment to clarify, as it seems there has been a slight misunderstanding of the nature of my inquiry. Obviously, if I am coming directly to you and openly asking about this issue, I am not intending to cause any trouble or act outside the scope of the law. You have advised me that I "need have little fear of arrest if [I am] not breaking/have not broken the law." Therefore, I believe it is reasonable to me to ask whether or not your department considers the act of openly carrying a firearm as lawful. I, personally, am convinced that open carry IS lawful.

Although, this clarification should probably also be directed to the City Attorney because it is his 'copied', default response that contains the message with which I have issues.
Mr. Sheehan, you stated that "At this point, I cannot, and will not, respond to hypothetical questions..." With respect, this is not a hypothetical question. This is a request for clarification of THIS department's INTERPRETATION of the law. Because the scope of Disorderly Conduct is so broad and is subject to interpretation SO differently by different departments, I want to know whether or not the City of Kenosha will protect my right to LAWFULLY carry a firearm openly, without harassment simply because I have a firearm on my hip.

I simply wish to know whether or not the KPD will honor my Federal/State given right, without brandishing vague "non-answers" in response to my inquiries. I appreciate the delicacy of this issue as a whole, and do not wish to stir up trouble. My only aim is clarification and understanding.

Thanks,
----------------

i guess we'll see what happens. thnx for the suggestions.

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Good luck getting any clarification. If you open carry around here you have a good chance of a run in with the police. I was detained on suspicion of disorderly conduct last February for open carrying in the Pick N' Save on the north side. They ended up letting me go when it finally sunk in that I wasn't doing anything illegal.



http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/8512.html

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GJD wrote:

Good luck getting any clarification. If you open carry around here you have a good chance of a run in with the police. I was detained on suspicion of disorderly conduct last February for open carrying in the Pick N' Save on the north side. They ended up letting me go when it finally sunk in that I wasn't doing anything illegal.



http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/8512.html

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You are a brave man, sir. Wisconsin leaves you little choice. Carry openly or go disarmed. I know which I would choose. The police will get used to it as it becomes more common.

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...in my nearly 43 years of law enforcement that a situation such as someone carrying a handgun in a holster carried openly on a person's hip for example, and merely walking around in a public area has occurred. The few times I recall it happening has resulted in both, no enforcement being taken and, enforcement being taken. It depended on the total circumstances that presented itself.

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No arrest was made is because the person most likely had a permit to carry.

Unless you have a "Blue Card", Waukesha PDwill arrest you...unless you give some other ligit excuse.

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Ah yes, the Bunker has returned.

For those of you who are new here, Bunker has a history of posting false information.

Ignore the trolls, and they will leave.

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bnhcomputing wrote:

Ah yes, the Bunker has returned.

For those of you who are new here, Bunker has a history of posting false information.

Ignore the trolls, and they will leave.

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I agree with the Gentleman from ????????,WI. bnhcomputing, where are you from in WI? Could you update you location info? Or is it purposely kept private?