Online CHP Course Declined in Albemarle County

Grapeshot · Jan 8, 2012

jscot2890 said:
I was wondering if people were still having these problems with Alb. County? I'm applying tomorrow with my online certificate. thanks

Long time fixey. You should not have a problem.

TFred · Jan 8, 2012

jscot2890 said:
I was wondering if people were still having these problems with Alb. County? I'm applying tomorrow with my online certificate. thanks

From the long list of acceptable demonstrations of competence we find this:

7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or on-line course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;

TFred

jscot2890 · Jan 8, 2012

TFred said:
From the long list of acceptable demonstrations of competence we find this:

7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or on-line course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;

TFred

thanks guys appreciate the advice

Sheriff · Jan 8, 2012

For residents in the Albemarle area.....

Virginia Justice & Safety Associates next Basic Handgun Safety/Concealed Weapon classes will be held on Fri. Jan. 13th from 6pm-9pm, and on Sat. Jan. 14th from 9am - Noon, at our Ruckersville office on Rt. 29 at Deer Lake. Visit www.vajusticeandsafety.com for qualifications, certifications and course information. Participants must call 434-566-8774 to sign-up and cost is $35 each.

user · Jan 9, 2012

As an NRA certified instructor, I recently received written instructions from the NRA telling me that I'm prohibited from using their name or certification credentials in connection with an online course. New policy. So there's no such thing (as a purely legal matter) as an online course taught by an NRA certified instructor, because the NRA does not certify instructors to present online courses. Moreover, the unauthorized use of NRA's identity in connection with such a course could get one sued in a really big way by the NRA, should they choose to push it. They did indicate that they will cancel the credentials immediately if they hear of anyone violating their policy.

Grapeshot · Jan 9, 2012

user said:
As an NRA certified instructor, I recently received written instructions from the NRA telling me that I'm prohibited from using their name or certification credentials in connection with an online course. New policy. So there's no such thing (as a purely legal matter) as an online course taught by an NRA certified instructor, because the NRA does not certify instructors to present online courses. Moreover, the unauthorized use of NRA's identity in connection with such a course could get one sued in a really big way by the NRA, should they choose to push it. They did indicate that they will cancel the credentials immediately if they hear of anyone violating their policy.

Did the NRA offer any reason for this? Would seem to be that they are targeting Virginia specifically.

Mike · Jan 9, 2012

user said:
As an NRA certified instructor, I recently received written instructions from the NRA telling me that I'm prohibited from using their name or certification credentials in connection with an online course. New policy. So there's no such thing (as a purely legal matter) as an online course taught by an NRA certified instructor, because the NRA does not certify instructors to present online courses. Moreover, the unauthorized use of NRA's identity in connection with such a course could get one sued in a really big way by the NRA, should they choose to push it. They did indicate that they will cancel the credentials immediately if they hear of anyone violating their policy.

This needs to be questioned - am pretty sure the NRA supported changing Virginia law to allow for online training.

user · Jan 9, 2012

Grapeshot said:
Did the NRA offer any reason for this? Would seem to be that they are targeting Virginia specifically.

They hinted that they can't support the idea that a person can become "proficient" by taking an online course. They actually do have a rule that says an NRA certified instructor can only use his NRA credentials in teaching NRA courses, but they tell me that they're not pressing that one, because it's in their interest to have as many gun owners out there getting some kind of training and perhaps becoming members of the organization. But they think that online courses are so far beyond the minimum standards, and subject to abuse, that they can't allow their name to be used in connection with 'em. I strongly suspect there's a civil litigation reason hiding in that woodpile somewhere.

ncwabbit · Jan 9, 2012

There are significant etymological differences in providing viable on-line educational material verse material presented using traditional methodologies. Research has shown, there must be substantial oversight to assure material is properly vetted prior to being presented by someone just slapping up NRA’s power point slides on the internet as a YouTube presentation.

I think organizationally, the NRA is correct to remind their instructors of the course parameters they agreed to in teaching their firearm courses; thus keeping their instructors from lowering NRA course’s integrity (loss of reputation) by individual’s putting material out on the internet. I find it incredible any individual who teaches firearm knowledge would presume a student has the appropriate level of firearm safety, handling, etc., knowledge prior to heading out to the range to complete the live fire portion.

wabbit

Grapeshot · Jan 9, 2012

ncwabbit said:
There are significant etymological differences in providing viable on-line educational material verse material presented using traditional methodologies. Research has shown, there must be substantial oversight to assure material is properly vetted prior to being presented by someone just slapping up NRA’s power point slides on the internet as a YouTube presentation.

I think organizationally, the NRA is correct to remind their instructors of the course parameters they agreed to in teaching their firearm courses; thus keeping their instructors from lowering NRA course’s integrity (loss of reputation) by individual’s putting material out on the internet. I find it incredible any individual who teaches firearm knowledge would presume a student has the appropriate level of firearm safety, handling, etc., knowledge prior to heading out to the range to complete the live fire portion.

wabbit

Live fire is not required in Virginia.

Marco · Jan 9, 2012

Grapeshot said:
Did the NRA offer any reason for this? Would seem to be that they are targeting Virginia specifically.

As posted on VAGT.

ndaknow on VAGT said:
Because of Virginia Code §18.2-308 (G) (7) Instructors are allowed to define course content.

Because of this loophole, a sham class is as legitimate as an National Rifle Association of America (NRA) class.

The courts must accept any piece of paper which states the instructor’s NRA identification number as a valid diploma.

It was only a matter of time until the above loophole was exploited and online vending machines were setup to dispense diplomas that had to be accepted by the court for the purpose of obtaining a Virginia permit to carry a concealed handgun.

On November 7, 2011 the NRA announced a change in training policy. In it, NRA instructors are no longer permitted to use the association’s name or state their NRA identification number. The text of the announcement is below.

Online diploma mills are nothing more than money making machines.
Do you think the NRA’s new policy will put the online diploma mills out of business?

ANNOUCEMENT BY NRA –
Dear NRA Instructors and Training Counselors:
Due to NRA's long history of facilitating quality firearm training, the public expects a high standard for training programs bearing the NRA name. Maintaining the high quality of the training programs is of the upmost importance.
The National Rifle Association of America currently has no online firearm training courses. All of our firearm training courses (Home Firearm Safety excluded) have a shooting component on a range. Some NRA certified instructors have created online firearm training programs, and have issued certificates to individuals that take their courses, using the title NRA Certified Instructor. Under no circumstances may NRA's name or your NRA credentials be associated with any online firearms training course. If NRA's name or your NRA credentials are associated with a course, you must, among other things, actually work with the students, face-to-face, to allow you to evaluate whether they perform the safe operation of a firearm, and shoot with a sufficient level of skill. This policy applies to any course which might result in issuing any certificate that bears the title of NRA Certified Instructor, or if the course is associated in any way whatsoever with a certification issued by the NRA.
While NRA allows NRA Certified Instructors to use their titles in association with courses that are not NRA courses, as long as they make a very clear disclaimer that such courses are not NRA approved, the use of a disclaimer is not sufficient to allow you to use NRA's name or your NRA credentials in connection with an online course. In other words, your NRA credentials and the NRA's name, trademarks, titles identification numbers, etc. may not be associated with any online firearm training course, regardless of whether there is a statement that it is not an NRA course.
We have even found online courses with titles such as: "NRA CCW Course,"NRA Home Defense," and so on, that are not NRA sanctioned courses. NRA Instructors are not authorized to create a title of a course which includes "NRA," "National Rifle Association," or any other wording that makes a non-NRA course appear to be an NRA course.
Violation of these policies may result in revocation of your NRA credentials. If you have any questions concerning this policy, please contact the NRA Training Department.

Yours Truly,
Charles H. Mitchell
Manager, NRA Training Department.

Emphasis mine.

COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Bashing other gun rights organization
It appears they are gearing up for national concealed carry standards.

More training equals more money for them, who would have thought that.

Unfortunately, so many are falling for it.
American gun owners would never fall for gun registration but they are lining up for gun owner registration.

I don't see the NRA pushing for the rights of folks to carry without goverment intervention.

For all those that need a training class. A hunter safety course is legal as proof of training and the class is usually offered free of charge.
Why put money in the NRA's pocket.
While I do believe folks need to have some training I don't believe it should be mandatory.

Walt_Kowalski · Jan 9, 2012

user said:
As an NRA certified instructor, I recently received written instructions from the NRA telling me that I'm prohibited from using their name or certification credentials in connection with an online course. New policy. So there's no such thing (as a purely legal matter) as an online course taught by an NRA certified instructor, because the NRA does not certify instructors to present online courses. Moreover, the unauthorized use of NRA's identity in connection with such a course could get one sued in a really big way by the NRA, should they choose to push it. They did indicate that they will cancel the credentials immediately if they hear of anyone violating their policy.

Yet another reason why the NRA won't get a penny from me, and I'll continue to contribute to the GOA and SAF.

peter nap · Jan 9, 2012

Mike said:
This needs to be questioned - am pretty sure the NRA supported changing Virginia law to allow for online training.

Mike, read the previous two posts carefully, especially Agent 19's.
The NRA hasn't supported Gun Owners for a lot of years. They support......The NRA!
Get big and forget your roots.

That's exactly what I hope doesn't happen to VCDL.
and they were getting mighty close for a while.

TFred · Jan 9, 2012

user said:
As an NRA certified instructor, I recently received written instructions from the NRA telling me that I'm prohibited from using their name or certification credentials in connection with an online course. New policy. So there's no such thing (as a purely legal matter) as an online course taught by an NRA certified instructor, because the NRA does not certify instructors to present online courses. Moreover, the unauthorized use of NRA's identity in connection with such a course could get one sued in a really big way by the NRA, should they choose to push it. They did indicate that they will cancel the credentials immediately if they hear of anyone violating their policy.

Here's my problem with this.

The code states this:

"7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or on-line course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;"

The status of being a "NRA-certified firearms instructor" is a Boolean fact. You either are one, or you are not one. If a person who is a "NRA-certified firearms instructor" writes an on-line training course designed to demonstrate competence for a CHP, I don't think the NRA should have the authority to deny their ability to do this. The law is written to require a credential, not the approval of the agency which provides that credential.

How is this different for any other thing that requires a credential? What if I go to a very conservative religious school and get a diploma or a degree, and then decide to go into a line of work that they do not approve? Are they allowed to tell me that I cannot claim that I have their diploma or degree? I think not.

TFred

Uber_Olafsun · Jan 9, 2012

If it is done by a NRA instructor even without the NRA endorsement of the course it looks like it would still be valid. It doesn't say a NRA course but instructor the way I am reading that. A Doctor is a doctor regardless of where they are working. A NRA instructor designing their own course is still an instructor.

Marco · Jan 9, 2012

Yes, while the instructor has his NRA creditials the course would be valid but once the NRA strips the instructor of them his course would no longer be valid unless he is also a valid state cert instructor which usually means LE or DOJ.

The NRA strips instructors of the NRA cert for all types of violations to NRA rules/regs, which you agree to when you pay to become an NRA instructor.

http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/trainers_guide_updates_3-08.pdf
Read pg 3.

"Elmer" have you noticed the NRA hasn't taken issue with the Hunter's safety course being used, it has less to do with concealed carry than the online courses.

I wonder why? [sarcasm]

Herr Heckler Koch · Jan 9, 2012

An NRA apologist doubted the validity of the e-mail quoted above. If questioned,

http://www.nrablog.com/post/2011/11/08/NRA-Certified-Instructor-Policy-Update.aspx

wrightme · Jan 9, 2012

Herr Heckler Koch said:
An NRA apologist doubted the validity of the e-mail quoted above. If questioned,

http://www.nrablog.com/post/2011/11/08/NRA-Certified-Instructor-Policy-Update.aspx

If you are speaking of me, I have not doubted the validity of the email. In fact, I was checking the nrablog website when responding to your post.

The clear facts are that online courses, used in conjunction with a certificate stating "NRA Certified Instructor," have never been approved or condoned by the NRA. This isn't new. The NRA notice doesn't really change a thing.

Grapeshot · Jan 9, 2012

Herr Heckler Koch said:
An NRA apologist doubted the validity of the e-mail quoted above. If questioned,

http://www.nrablog.com/post/2011/11/08/NRA-Certified-Instructor-Policy-Update.aspx

Seems pretty clear to me.

"Violation of these policies may result in revocation of your NRA credentials. If you have any questions concerning this policy, please contact the NRA Training Department."

wrightme · Jan 9, 2012

TFred said:
Here's my problem with this.

The code states this:

"7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or on-line course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;"

The status of being a "NRA-certified firearms instructor" is a Boolean fact. You either are one, or you are not one. If a person who is a "NRA-certified firearms instructor" writes an on-line training course designed to demonstrate competence for a CHP, I don't think the NRA should have the authority to deny their ability to do this. The law is written to require a credential, not the approval of the agency which provides that credential.

How is this different for any other thing that requires a credential? What if I go to a very conservative religious school and get a diploma or a degree, and then decide to go into a line of work that they do not approve? Are they allowed to tell me that I cannot claim that I have their diploma or degree? I think not.

TFred

This seems valid. In other words, if the CHP requirement can be completed without the "NRA-certified firearms instructor" printed on the certificate, but the instructor can be verified as one, that would seem to fit the letter of the law. That looks like a decent question for the NRA, and for the relevant authority who would need to accept such certificate.

Online CHP Course Declined in Albemarle County

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