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Online CHP Course Declined in Albemarle County

TFred

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Sheriff wrote:
Thundar wrote:
Sheriff,

After seeing the firearms ability of some police at a range, I also worry about the capabilities of many police officers.

Of course the most important part of carrying a firearm is judgement, which cannot IMHO be taught.
Ohh, trust me, I share your concern. At the first sheriff's department I worked at for several decades, it took 25% of our total staff 6 or 7 timestime just to receive a score high enough toqualify to carry a firearm. And the score was only 70 out of a possible 100. They might be lucky enough to get a 71 on their 6th or 7th attempt.
You'd think in a profession that very well may have people shooting at you, you'd want to be able to do a little better than that! :shock:

TFred
 

leprechaun117

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a little update...

Buddy called Debbie Shipp to ask for clarification on the status of his permit. He wanted to make sure he wasn't illegaly concealing at this point. Debbie told him he was fine, his permit had not been denied, but the judge would not by accepting his application. He asked if she had any insite into her reasoning, and was told she went to some judge conferance and they decided they didn't think the online course was a good idea. Also said she has a "stack of applications sitting on her desk with the online course."

Meeting in two days... I'll let you guys know what happens.
 

Grapeshot

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leprechaun117 wrote:
a little update...

Buddy called Debbie Shipp to ask for clarification on the status of his permit. He wanted to make sure he wasn't illegaly concealing at this point. Debbie told him he was fine, his permit had not been denied, but the judge would not by accepting his application. He asked if she had any insite into her reasoning, and was told she went to some judge conferance and they decided they didn't think the online course was a good idea. Also said she has a "stack of applications sitting on her desk with the online course."

Meeting in two days... I'll let you guys know what happens.
Presuming all to be as reported here - it is TOTALLY beside the point what this judge or any other judge "thinks" about the online course. Personal opinion does not trump the law!

Yata hey
 

user

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TFred wrote:
virginiatuck wrote:
At this point what good will seeing *that* Circuit Court judge in-person do?  Go to her boss.

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned it in *this* particular thread, but I haven't seen it.  Issues such as this should be reported to the Chief Justice of the Virginia Supreme Court.

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Chief Justice
Supreme Court of Virginia
100 North Ninth Street, Fifth Floor
Richmond, VA 23219[/font]


http://www.vcdl.org/static/ccw.html
Note the part that says "[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Be polite and provide as much detail as possible - names, dates, comments made by officials, documents provided by officials, etc."  :)[/font]
It would seem the person having this trouble has two options, go to the meeting as planned, take notes, find out first hand what the issue is, then take this evidence to the Chief Justice, or, go to the Chief Justice with the second hand information provided/leaked by the clerk, which gives the judge in question the chance to deny any wrong doing as a simple misunderstanding.

It may very well end up better in the long run to take the first option.

Not my call of course...  What would Mike do?  :)

TFred

Do not do that. The Chief Justice has absolutely no reason to look at any such correspondence or take it seriously. Instead, do two things: 1) file a petition in the Supreme Court for a writ of mandamus, which is an order to compel the circuit court judge to do his job; and 2) file a complaint with the Judicial Inquiry and Review Commission (http://www.courts.state.va.us/pamphlets/inquiry.htm).

But here's another wrinkle - 18.2-308 states that there are two different time limits: "The certified application shall serve as a de facto permit, which shall expire 90 days after issuance, and shall be recognized as a valid concealed handgun permit when presented with a valid government-issued photo identification pursuant to subsection H, until the court issues a five-year permit or finds the applicant to be disqualified." It states, first, that the de facto permit expires after 90 days, but it also says that the temporary permit doesn't expire until there is either a denial or issuance. I therefore read that to state that the certified application expires in 90 days, but that the temporary permit is good until the court issues a final order. Given the ambiguity, I don't see how anyone could be legitimately convicted of a crime for carrying a concealed weapon when the statute clearly states that the temporary permit is good until a final order is issued.

I would not rely on that, however. It's risky. Instead, given the facts as you know them now, I'd file a petition for a writ of mandamus right away.
 

leprechaun117

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So it's over.

Buddy went to court, met with the judge in her chambers. He asked why she would not allow the use of the online chp course. She said she didn't like the idea that any nut could take the online course and get a permit. He said a nut would probably conceal without a permit, and she didn't have a response. He showed her that the course was given by an NRA instructor, and she said it wasn't a real class because it was online. He asked if there was a law against the class being online, she said no, but it was up to her to decide if she allowed the class or not. He showed her that a bill had been passed 99-0 to specifically allow the class and only needed to be signed, she said until it is law she does not care.

He realized he wasn't getting anywhere, so he pulled out his hunter education certificate, explained to her that he had taken it in the early 90s, they didn't say a word about CHP laws, and no hand guns were involved. She said why didn't you say that in the first place, I'll approve your permit, you can follow Debbie Shipp back to her office and she'll print it for you.

Gets up to Debbie's office, she says "you're lucky, most people have to wait a lot longer than you did!"

It has been 140 days.

Glad we have an activist judge that refuses to use logic. Guess I have to find another CHP course to take (after I already paid $40 for the online one.)
 

TexasNative

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leprechaun117 wrote:
Guess I have to find another CHP course to take (after I already paid $40 for the online one.)
Or, if you want to make the system work right for the next guy, you could use your online course and follow some of the suggestions posted earlier in this thread about how to make the judge do her damn job. Sorry, got a little carried away there.

I can understand if you're not willing to go to such lengths. There are lots of reasons why someone wouldn't put themselves through that. But if you're willing, I strongly encourage you to stick with it.

Shifting gears, this just proves that the claims of "something else going on here" are patently false. She's not doing her job. She's getting away with it. And some here are apologists for her arrogance.
 

Sheriff

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TexasNative wrote:
Shifting gears, this just proves that the claims of "something else going on here" are patently false. She's not doing her job. She's getting away with it. And some here are apologists for her arrogance.

We still don't know what really went on. Every bit of discussion here has been second or third person hearsay. The applicant hasn't spoken to us at all in this thread. I have no reason to doubt anything told to us so far, but it is hearsay, "he said, she said".

Secondly, I agree with the judge(s) 100% in thebelief that a person who has never physically handled or discharged a firearm shouldn't be issued a Concealed Handgun Permit. That is a very scary thought. I could graduate an online course, get my permit, and then rush down to the gun shoppe and buy ahandgun. God save any innocent bystanders if Iam not at all familiar with handguns. It's a recipe fordisaster.
 

hsmith

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Sheriff wrote:
TexasNative wrote:
Shifting gears, this just proves that the claims of "something else going on here" are patently false. She's not doing her job. She's getting away with it. And some here are apologists for her arrogance.

We still don't know what really went on. Every bit of discussion here has been second or third person hearsay. The applicant hasn't spoken to us at all in this thread. I have no reason to doubt anything told to us so far, but it is hearsay, "he said, she said".

Secondly, I agree with the judge(s) 100% in thebelief that a person who has never physically handled or discharged a firearm shouldn't be issued a Concealed Handgun Permit. That is a very scary thought. I could graduate an online course, get my permit, and then rush down to the gun shoppe and buy ahandgun. God save any innocent bystanders if Iam not at all familiar with handguns. It's a recipe fordisaster.


You don't need a permit to buy a gun, I don't get your argument.

Plus, it is nice that the judge thinks that - perhaps she should run for Governor or Senator so her feelings can be made into law. But her feels are not law, so she can't create extra requirements.
 

leprechaun117

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Sheriff wrote:
TexasNative wrote:
Shifting gears, this just proves that the claims of "something else going on here" are patently false. She's not doing her job. She's getting away with it. And some here are apologists for her arrogance.

We still don't know what really went on.  Every bit of discussion here has been second or third person hearsay.  The applicant hasn't spoken to us at all in this thread.  I have no reason to doubt anything told to us so far, but it is hearsay, "he said, she said".

Secondly, I agree with the judge(s) 100% in the belief that a person who has never physically handled or discharged a firearm shouldn't be issued a Concealed Handgun Permit.  That is a very scary thought.   I could graduate an online course, get my permit, and then rush down to the gun shoppe and buy a handgun.  God save any innocent bystanders if I am not at all familiar with handguns.   It's a recipe for disaster.


I would rather someone take the online course and get a permit than someone take a hunter education class (at a middle school!) almost 15 years ago and get it. Have you seen the video? Aside from not being face to face I thought it was thorough, definitely better than "you have to wear 50 square inches of blaze orange when in the woods." That tells me a lot about hand gun safety....

I'll be putting my application in tomorrow with the online certificate. I assure you I will have my de facto permit on day 46, and I will make any (free/cheap) phone calls that need to be made. And it will be first person, there will be much less chance of any miscommuniation.

I counted the days, July 1st is within 135 days from tomorrow, either way she will be forced to accept my application.
 

Sheriff

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hsmith wrote:
You don't need a permit to buy a gun, I don't get your argument.
In this society, I don't think any person should condonesomebody carrying a firearm, when that person has never handled or discharged one. Now answer this question truthfully.... would you go out to Montana on a week long hunting trip with 2 or 3 of your best friends who have never in their life handled a high power rifle? That's my argument in a nutshell.

Is it illegal for them to purchase a rifle. No. Is it safe? No. :shock:
 

leprechaun117

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Sheriff wrote:
hsmith wrote:
You don't need a permit to buy a gun, I don't get your argument.

Is it illegal for them to purchase a rifle.  No.  Is it safe?  No.  :shock:


 



Exactly. Is it illegal? No. So why is a judge making a decision on this? Judge decide on laws, not "good ideas." Can you be arrested for kissing a girl with herpes? No, but it certainly isn't a good idea. Get it?
 

Mike

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leprechaun117 wrote:
So it's over.

Buddy went to court, met with the judge in her chambers. He asked why she would not allow the use of the online chp course. She said she didn't like the idea that any nut could take the online course and get a permit. He said a nut would probably conceal without a permit, and she didn't have a response. He showed her that the course was given by an NRA instructor, and she said it wasn't a real class because it was online. He asked if there was a law against the class being online, she said no, but it was up to her to decide if she allowed the class or not. He showed her that a bill had been passed 99-0 to specifically allow the class and only needed to be signed, she said until it is law she does not care.

He realized he wasn't getting anywhere, so he pulled out his hunter education certificate, explained to her that he had taken it in the early 90s, they didn't say a word about CHP laws, and no hand guns were involved. She said why didn't you say that in the first place, I'll approve your permit, you can follow Debbie Shipp back to her office and she'll print it for you.

Gets up to Debbie's office, she says "you're lucky, most people have to wait a lot longer than you did!"

It has been 140 days.

Glad we have an activist judge that refuses to use logic. Guess I have to find another CHP course to take (after I already paid $40 for the online one.)
Great - so your buddy wasted a pefect chance to file an appeal of a de facto denial of the permit by this judge.
 

hometheaterman

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Sheriff wrote:
TexasNative wrote:
Shifting gears, this just proves that the claims of "something else going on here" are patently false. She's not doing her job. She's getting away with it. And some here are apologists for her arrogance.

We still don't know what really went on. Every bit of discussion here has been second or third person hearsay. The applicant hasn't spoken to us at all in this thread. I have no reason to doubt anything told to us so far, but it is hearsay, "he said, she said".

Secondly, I agree with the judge(s) 100% in thebelief that a person who has never physically handled or discharged a firearm shouldn't be issued a Concealed Handgun Permit. That is a very scary thought. I could graduate an online course, get my permit, and then rush down to the gun shoppe and buy ahandgun. God save any innocent bystanders if Iam not at all familiar with handguns. It's a recipe fordisaster.
So your saying that if you take the online course that means you don't have experience handling a firearm? Or are you just saying you don't have to?

What about the hunters safety classes? I've taken it twice. Once for me and once with someone else who didn't want to take it alone. I had my card get washed. Well, the small one I still had the big one and they told me if I took it again they would give me a new one instead of my paying for a replacement. So I took it again for that and the fact that the other person didn't want to take it alone. I think it's a good idea to take it every so often as your forget things. However, do you know how much experience I got handling firearms in that class? Zero. Infact do you know how much they even talked about handguns? Hardly any at all and I sure didn't get to handle one. They had a few long guns for us to look at but they were not in working order. They were only for you to look at and not sure if you could touch them or not. You sure couldn't shoot them and get experience.

There are also several courses in this area I've heard of that work to get a chp and none of them have you handling a gun at all. Infact I think I only know of one that does have you handle them. Not saying there aren't more as I sure don't know about all of them.


So since all these classes are fine and dandy and will get you approved and seem okay why is it that the online course isn't fine? All they do in the hunters safety class is talk and show you videos. That could all easily be done online. You get the same ammount of experience handling a gun which is zero either way. So why is the hunters safety class okay but not the online class? Why are the other courses for this okay that don't have you handle a gun but not the online ones?


Sorry but I think it's dumb that the online one in your eyes and the judges isn't sufficent but the rest of these that also offer 0 experience in handling a gun are.

Not to mention how do you know whoever took the online class or any class for that matter hasn't been shooting and handling guns since they were a little kid? You don't. So they may or may not have plenty of experience.


I don't like the idea of someone with no experience carrying a gun but I don't think you should just be able to not sign a permit because a person may or may not have experience with a gun because they took a online class instead of one in person that probably doesn't teach you anymore than the online one.
 

user

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The statute, Virginia Code § 18.2-308(G) says that the following is a "demonstration of competence"":
3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;

In my view, watching a dvd or taking an online course, where there is no interaction between the student and the teacher is not a "firearms safety or training course", because a "course" as used in the statute, requires "instructors".

So I've changed my mind about the legal requirements.

Furthermore, I do not share the opinion that everyone should be able to carry a concealed weapon or that minimal exposure to safety training is sufficient. Even people experienced with guns fail to recognize how dangerous they are, and in some cases, the more experienced, the more overly confident. General George Patton shot himself in the leg re-holstering a handgun, after all.

Secondly, when a person is openly carrying, then other people are able to be on their guard, if they feel it necessary, in case the person with a gun should become a threat. They are at least in a position to be aware of the presence of the gun and be on alert. People who are carrying a concealed weapon do not communicate the same level of required awareness, and other people let down their guard assuming that the strangers they're with are unarmed. Therefore, a higher level of training and responsibility must be required of those who intend to carry a concealed weapon, because we have a duty to the public to ensure minimal standards for competence, reliability, and safe handling knowledge.

The background check is a good thing, and I'm in favor of fingerprinting, too, as a means of checking for outstanding warrants and felony convictions in other states. But I can't support the idea that a person who receives either safety or proficiency training, especially by an instructorless course, is sufficient.

Now, that's my private opinion. If I were representing a client's interests in court, I'd argue the broadest possible interpretation of the statute as it is, because my personal opinion about shoulds and oughts simply doesn't matter in that situation. If I'm hired to speak for another person whose liberty or property are at stake, I owe it to him, as well as to the system, to represent his interests as he sees them, not my own.

But if I get the ear of a legislator, I'm going to try to talk him into an amendment. I wouldn't trust someone behind the wheel of a car who's had either safety or proficiency training by means of a course taught by a machine and without interaction between students and instructors.
 

hsmith

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user wrote:
The statute, Virginia Code § 18.2-308(G) says that the following is a "demonstration of competence"":
3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;

In my view, watching a dvd or taking an online course, where there is no interaction between the student and the teacher is not a "firearms safety or training course", because a "course" as used in the statute, requires "instructors".

So I've changed my mind about the legal requirements.

Furthermore, I do not share the opinion that everyone should be able to carry a concealed weapon or that minimal exposure to safety training is sufficient. Even people experienced with guns fail to recognize how dangerous they are, and in some cases, the more experienced, the more overly confident. General George Patton shot himself in the leg re-holstering a handgun, after all.

Secondly, when a person is openly carrying, then other people are able to be on their guard, if they feel it necessary, in case the person with a gun should become a threat. They are at least in a position to be aware of the presence of the gun and be on alert. People who are carrying a concealed weapon do not communicate the same level of required awareness, and other people let down their guard assuming that the strangers they're with are unarmed. Therefore, a higher level of training and responsibility must be required of those who intend to carry a concealed weapon, because we have a duty to the public to ensure minimal standards for competence, reliability, and safe handling knowledge.

The background check is a good thing, and I'm in favor of fingerprinting, too, as a means of checking for outstanding warrants and felony convictions in other states. But I can't support the idea that a person who receives either safety or proficiency training, especially by an instructorless course, is sufficient.

Now, that's my private opinion. If I were representing a client's interests in court, I'd argue the broadest possible interpretation of the statute as it is, because my personal opinion about shoulds and oughts simply doesn't matter in that situation. If I'm hired to speak for another person whose liberty or property are at stake, I owe it to him, as well as to the system, to represent his interests as he sees them, not my own.

But if I get the ear of a legislator, I'm going to try to talk him into an amendment. I wouldn't trust someone behind the wheel of a car who's had either safety or proficiency training by means of a course taught by a machine and without interaction between students and instructors.

So where do you draw the line? Should someone have to go to Blackwater for 4 weeks to become sufficently "proficent" in firearms? A week course?

Sorry, but even a few hours at the range isn't enough for some people.

Should people have to requalify every year?

Where does it end?

Terrible, absolutely terrible idea.
 

darthmord

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hsmith wrote:
user wrote:
The statute, Virginia Code § 18.2-308(G) says that the following is a "demonstration of competence"":
3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;

In my view, watching a dvd or taking an online course, where there is no interaction between the student and the teacher is not a "firearms safety or training course", because a "course" as used in the statute, requires "instructors".

So I've changed my mind about the legal requirements.

Furthermore, I do not share the opinion that everyone should be able to carry a concealed weapon or that minimal exposure to safety training is sufficient. Even people experienced with guns fail to recognize how dangerous they are, and in some cases, the more experienced, the more overly confident. General George Patton shot himself in the leg re-holstering a handgun, after all.

Secondly, when a person is openly carrying, then other people are able to be on their guard, if they feel it necessary, in case the person with a gun should become a threat. They are at least in a position to be aware of the presence of the gun and be on alert. People who are carrying a concealed weapon do not communicate the same level of required awareness, and other people let down their guard assuming that the strangers they're with are unarmed. Therefore, a higher level of training and responsibility must be required of those who intend to carry a concealed weapon, because we have a duty to the public to ensure minimal standards for competence, reliability, and safe handling knowledge.

The background check is a good thing, and I'm in favor of fingerprinting, too, as a means of checking for outstanding warrants and felony convictions in other states. But I can't support the idea that a person who receives either safety or proficiency training, especially by an instructorless course, is sufficient.

Now, that's my private opinion. If I were representing a client's interests in court, I'd argue the broadest possible interpretation of the statute as it is, because my personal opinion about shoulds and oughts simply doesn't matter in that situation. If I'm hired to speak for another person whose liberty or property are at stake, I owe it to him, as well as to the system, to represent his interests as he sees them, not my own.

But if I get the ear of a legislator, I'm going to try to talk him into an amendment. I wouldn't trust someone behind the wheel of a car who's had either safety or proficiency training by means of a course taught by a machine and without interaction between students and instructors.

So where do you draw the line? Should someone have to go to Blackwater for 4 weeks to become sufficently "proficent" in firearms? A week course?

Sorry, but even a few hours at the range isn't enough for some people.

Should people have to requalify every year?

Where does it end?

Terrible, absolutely terrible idea.

I don't think it's a terrible idea. It's a good idea... on paper.

Where it fails is in application. It runs afoul of 'common sense'. The possible requirements have too high of a chance of becoming excessive and onerous due to the good intentions (or lack thereof) of the legislature and/or lobbyists.

Therein lies the problem. It's a good idea without any sort of good solution to implement it. As such, I would NOT want this idea implemented until such time as we had a good way to do so that protects freedoms / liberties / rights and achieves the goals of the idea.
 
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