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Thread: What if I don't WANT to call a lawyer?

  1. #1
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    I've seen the recommended videos:

    Never talk to the police:
    Part 1:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
    Part 2:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE


    Busted: Citizens guide to surviving police encounters
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

    I've read the recommendations of professionals:

    If you have to shoot someone, only call 911 to report shots are fired, and someone is injured.

    The only things you say to the police are:

    • I was attacked by that person.
    • I want him arrested.
    • I will not say anything else until I talk to my lawyer.

    I understand that is the best course of action to take to protect yourself, but here's my question:

    What if I don't WANT to call a lawyer?

    What good is a lawyer really going to do at that point? Sure, I can tell my attorney what happened, and I assume he's going to relay the important information to the police so they can decide I acted justifiably. But what are my other options to protect myself from prosecution?

    I want to know WHY it's really best to call a lawyer. What is he really going to do for me that I can't do for myself? If I only say I was attacked, and say nothing else, what can the police really do?

    I've seen some other writings that do say you should answer the officer's questions, but I think that can only screw you in the long run. Even though you may be arrested if you don't say anything, don't they then have to provide you with an attorney?

    I don't have anything personal against lawyers, I just resent having to pay one for something I can do myself.

    ...Orygunner...

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    The point of having your lawyer present during questioning is tro prevent you from saying something that will incriminate yourself - by your lawyer objecting to a question (or line of questioning) before you get around to opening your piehole.

    Are you well-versed in the law and legal procedure regarding self incrimination? Are you, at the moment, sufficiently emotionally detatched to prevent yourself from falling into any of the myriad traps the cops can legally set and spring on you? Your lawyer is supposed to be able to negotiate that minefield for you so that you do not say something that later on, in a courtroom, you will regret for 20 years or so.

    The other reason for asking for your lawyer to be present is because it takes time for him to be contacted and then arrive at wherever you are being held. Time is the enemy of cops who want to wrap things up right now, no matter how flimsy a case they put together. Trust me on this - BTDT, and my lawyer's advice to suffer a night in lockup turned out to be a price that was a lot cheaper than what I would have had to pay if convicted. (I got lucky - during the overnight the real guilty party committed another brazenly criminal act and I had a perfect alibi in spite of eyewitnesses who would have sworn it was me.)

    Finally, in response to your question about them having to provide you with an attorney - " ... and if you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you by the court." The operative word being /afford/ -- you need to have such limited assets that even if you sold (just about) everyting you owned you still could not raise the money to hire your own attorney. At that point you get a Public Defender (Let's plead to a lesser included offense and settle for 5 years instead of 20, and call it good, OK?) to represent you.

    I know - there are a few jurisdictions that are still so flush with money that every criminal defendant gets a private-practice criminal defense lawyer appointed to represent them at least through arraignment. And even if the local budget tanks they will continue to pay that cost - even to the point of laying off firemen to be able to do so. So no comments about your locality being different.

    So pony up and pay the lawyer. Unless you think going to jail and losing your 2A rights is better than having to pay the lawyer.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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  3. #3
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    Orygunner (14 December 2008 Sunday 02:23) says:

    I don't have anything personal against lawyers, I just resent having to pay one for something I can do myself.
    As long as you actually can do what the lawyer can do, there's no reason to pay one. I think you'd want to be pretty certain of what the lawyer is doing, and that you yourself can do it.

    IMHO I think some legal self-education beyond the level of a couple of YouTube videos might be a good idea before trying to go pro se past a certain point. I found it useful to read lots and lots of self-defense cases, not just for what the decisions were, but to be able to see what thinking was going on in the case reports themselves. Legal language is not beyond the grasp of an intelligent layperson, but it takes some practice.

    Remember too that the whole "what to say to the police" discussion is a minor variant of 9mm v. .45 and the rest of our Oldies But Goodies. This discussion at SIGForum re: talking to the police brings up some of the issues, with both lawyers and LEOs participating. It takes a while to get started, if you read it go to at least the second page.

    It might help to think about lawyers as being similar to doctors in some ways. Some are (much!) better than others, and someone who's taken the time to learn can do some of what they do themselves, though they will never admit that. But when you really need one, you need one pretty badly, and knowing when you really need one is not always as easy as it looks.

    But it's much easier when you've spent serious time learning the legal system and how it (really) works, with special reference to your jurisdiction.

    Just my USD 0.02. Stay safe.

    regards,

    GR

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    Rephrase the question like this: I just had a heart attack, is there anything I can do so I don't need a doctor?

    Even Lawyers are smart enought to get thier own lawyers when they get arrested.

    Any lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.

    Anything YOU say, CAN AND WILL be used against you in a court of law.

    If your lawyer slips up and tells the cops "He said he murderedhim" ,anything your lawyer says is simply him repeating information that he has heard. The cops can't use hearsay. Not admissible as evidence. If you slip up and say the same thing, possibly needle in the arm and a long dirt nap.

    If ever in the situation of having shot an intruder DO NOT talk to the cops, GET A LAWYER.

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    Orygunner wrote:
    I've seen the recommended videos:

    Never talk to the police:
    Part 1:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
    Part 2:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

    Busted: Citizens guide to surviving police encounters
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

    I've read the recommendations of professionals:

    If you have to shoot someone, only call 911 to report shots are fired, and someone is injured.

    The only things you say to the police are:
    • I was attacked by that person.
    • I want him arrested.
    • I will not say anything else until I talk to my lawyer.
    I understand that is the best course of action to take to protect yourself, but here's my question:

    What if I don't WANT to call a lawyer?

    What good is a lawyer really going to do at that point? Sure, I can tell my attorney what happened, and I assume he's going to relay the important information to the police so they can decide I acted justifiably. But what are my other options to protect myself from prosecution?

    I want to know WHY it's really best to call a lawyer. What is he really going to do for me that I can't do for myself? If I only say I was attacked, and say nothing else, what can the police really do?

    I've seen some other writings that do say you should answer the officer's questions, but I think that can only screw you in the long run. Even though you may be arrested if you don't say anything, don't they then have to provide you with an attorney?

    I don't have anything personal against lawyers, I just resent having to pay one for something I can do myself.

    ...Orygunner...
    Quick answer-every situation is different. Every jurisdiction is different, every responding officer is different, every police supervisor is different, every prosecutor is different (they will be the ones deciding on if to charge/not to charge), every judge is different. If I would use deadly force as a citizen and have the possibility of being charged with a "crime" that could put me in jail for life (or the chair), I would want somebody well versed in the law representing me. Know what I mean? Unlike others here, I know that it is not the police officers intention to "screw you" in most cases, they are just trying to get the facts of the case. Just the opposite actually, most officers I've seen (this is MY jurisdiction mind you, i'm not speaking for others) do their best to give the person defending themselves the benefit. This goes for the prosecutor as well (again, MY jurisdiction, not all). BUT, what if you get the one who doesn't think like this? Why gamble your freedom.

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    Gentleman Ranker wrote:
    Orygunner (14 December 2008 Sunday 02:23) says:

    I don't have anything personal against lawyers, I just resent having to pay one for something I can do myself.
    As long as you actually can do what the lawyer can do, there's no reason to pay one. I think you'd want to be pretty certain of what the lawyer is doing, and that you yourself can do it.

    IMHO I think some legal self-education beyond the level of a couple of YouTube videos might be a good idea before trying to go pro se past a certain point. I found it useful to read lots and lots of self-defense cases, not just for what the decisions were, but to be able to see what thinking was going on in the case reports themselves. Legal language is not beyond the grasp of an intelligent layperson, but it takes some practice.

    Remember too that the whole "what to say to the police" discussion is a minor variant of 9mm v. .45 and the rest of our Oldies But Goodies. This discussion at SIGForum re: talking to the police brings up some of the issues, with both lawyers and LEOs participating. It takes a while to get started, if you read it go to at least the second page.

    It might help to think about lawyers as being similar to doctors in some ways. Some are (much!) better than others, and someone who's taken the time to learn can do some of what they do themselves, though they will never admit that. But when you really need one, you need one pretty badly, and knowing when you really need one is not always as easy as it looks.

    But it's much easier when you've spent serious time learning the legal system and how it (really) works, with special reference to your jurisdiction.

    Just my USD 0.02. Stay safe.

    regards,

    GR
    There are many instances where the "don't talk to the police" can back fire. What if the police respond because your wife claims you hit her. Of course, you won't talk to the police, so that gives them one side of the story. What if your child falls and breaks their arm. A lot of places call the police for this. Instead of talking to the police and letting them know what happened, you now have social services called on you because the police don't have your side. What if an endangered missing child is in your area and the police come knocking door to door on a canvass. Maybe you saw a child matching the desciption earlier, but you "won't talk to the police". Now precious time is gone because you won't say anything. That is an ignorant statement to "neve talk to the police".

    THINK FOR YOURSELVES PEOPLE!! USE YOUR HEADS. Every situation is different. Let's not all be like sheep and just follow what somebody on youtube of all places tells us.

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    nitrovic wrote:
    SNIP There are many instances where the "don't talk to the police" can back fire. What if the police respond because your wife claims you hit her. Of course, you won't talk to the police, so that gives them one side of the story. What if your child falls and breaks their arm. A lot of places call the police for this. Instead of talking to the police and letting them know what happened, you now have social services called on you because the police don't have your side. What if an endangered missing child is in your area and the police come knocking door to door on a canvass. Maybe you saw a child matching the desciption earlier, but you "won't talk to the police". Now precious time is gone because you won't say anything. That is an ignorant statement to "neve talk to the police".

    THINK FOR YOURSELVES PEOPLE!! USE YOUR HEADS. Every situation is different. Let's not all be like sheep and just follow what somebody on youtube of all places tells us.
    Just as there are many instances where talking to the police can backfire.

    Lets recall Professor Duane's video. "Never speak to police under any circumstances" was his phrasing, I believe. And, lets recall that he quoted Supreme Court Justice Jackson who said the same. And the Detective in the video who, upon arriving at the podium says, "Everything Professor Duane just told you is true."

    So, that's one law professor and former criminal attorney, one Supreme Court Justice--cite provided in the video and researched by me, and one police detective ALL SAYING DON"T TALK TO THE POLICE. That is more than triple good enough for me.

    As to Vic's statement about witholding information about a missing child, I think we're being attacked not for our own literal-ness, but for Vic's literal-ness in interpreting our posts. I doubt anybody would really withold information about a missing child. It would help if literal-minded people would not take too literallywhat is being posted. I for one refuse to list out myriad caveats and exceptions to what I write for the benefit of the literal-minded or to avoid being criticized.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    What if I don't WANT to call a lawyer?

    Why would you NOT want to call a lawyer?

    What good is a lawyer really going to do at that point?


    Ensure you don't say something dumb.

    I want to know WHY it's really best to call a lawyer.

    Because that's what the cops do when they get in trouble. Most people are not well versed on specific criminal laws, so why blab about stuff you may not know or understand fully at the moment?

    Sure, I can tell my attorney what happened, and I assume he's going to relay the important information to the police so they can decide I acted justifiably.

    Your atty if he is smart will do nothing until the cops charge you with a crime. If there is no charge, there is nothing to talk about, at all.

    If I only say I was attacked, and say nothing else, what can the police really do?

    Say you lied. Say you used excessive force. Say you shot first. Forget what you said. Make up anything to charge you with.

    Even though you may be arrested if you don't say anything, don't they then have to provide you with an attorney?

    Yes.

    I don't have anything personal against lawyers, I just resent having to pay one for something I can do myself.


    You may not have to pay for one. Get a public defender first and see what the cops are saying/trying to charge you with.

    The operative word being /afford/ -- you need to have such limited assets that even if you sold (just about) everyting you owned you still could not raise the money to hire your own attorney.

    I disagree. If they charge you with a crime, they must provide you an atty.


    Any lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.

    I never liked this statement. There is nothing wrong with self-representation. I have heard wildly divergent statements from lawyers regarding the same issue, so it isn't like going to law school makes you smart.

    There are many instances where the "don't talk to the police" can back fire.


    I can't possibly think of one other than not objecting to a search.

    What if the police respond because your wife claims you hit her


    Doesn't matter what you say. You are going to jail.

    What if your child falls and breaks their arm. A lot of places call the police for this. Instead of talking to the police and letting them know what happened, you now have social services called on you because the police don't have your side.


    What if an endangered missing child is in your area and the police come knocking door to door on a canvass. Maybe you saw a child matching the desciption earlier, but you "won't talk to the police". Now precious time is gone because you won't say anything.


    This sounds mean, but it is not my problem. If I did see the child, then I'll be arrested as the "last person who saw the child alive" No thanks. Go bang on someone else's door. If you feel you must talk to the cops, I'd insist on a blanket no prosecution by the state and federal prosecutor for the next 20 years for any and all crimes first with their personal pensions and retirements as liquidated damages. If it is important, they can get it signed.

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    nitrovic wrote:
    There are many instances where the "don't talk to the police" can back fire. What if the police respond because your wife claims you hit her. Of course, you won't talk to the police, so that gives them one side of the story. What if your child falls and breaks their arm. A lot of places call the police for this. Instead of talking to the police and letting them know what happened, you now have social services called on you because the police don't have your side. What if an endangered missing child is in your area and the police come knocking door to door on a canvass. Maybe you saw a child matching the desciption earlier, but you "won't talk to the police". Now precious time is gone because you won't say anything. That is an ignorant statement to "neve talk to the police".

    THINK FOR YOURSELVES PEOPLE!! USE YOUR HEADS. Every situation is different. Let's not all be like sheep and just follow what somebody on youtube of all places tells us.
    Very good points!!!

    It is like being caught by the wife with another woman in your bedroom! Damn you look guilty as hell to her and you better not say anything as it will be used against you!

    The wife, not hearing a valid reason for the woman being there, files for divorce!

    However, had you told her.. "This is my sister who came to visit" the direction of the conversation would be different and no divorce pending. What else is she to believe?

    I see the same thing for the police. Nobody is telling you to cop to a crime! The whole idea of saying NOTHING seems dumb to me if you are being stopped for a crime you know you did not do.

    IfI have not committed a crime I have a hard time believingI amgoing to convince the police I am the guy they want. Hell, saying nothing is going to be far worse in my opinion. It makes me look like I have something to hide.

    Either way, I can be arrested. Having a lawyer or not.

    Now if I am told I am under arrest for a crime. Then I WILL get an attorney.

    This board appears to be really be filled with paranoid people who hate and/or distrust all police.

    We have to remember. The police work on our behalf to do a job to catch criminals. We need to keep in mind that we might be stopped for reasons we are not fully aware of.

    USE YOUR HEADS PEOPLE!!!


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    Thanks for the great responses so far. But to clarify a little bit:

    If I'm NOT going to say ANYTHING except the statements I've already made (That man attacked me, and I want him arrested), how can I fall into their "traps"?

    Of course if charged with a serious crime I'm not going to try to defend myself in a court of law! I agree that at that point I would probably be in over my head, but what I don't understand is what a lawyer is going to do for me at the investigation stage anyway? Do I tell my lawyer my story and he relays all the relevant information to the police? Because the LAWYER is telling what happened, it isn't any admission on my part and can't be held against me?

    What is the attorney going to do for me that I can't or shouldn't do for myself?

    Also, what if one of my family is with me if I have to use my firearm in self-defense? Can THEY relay the story to the police, or should they also remain silent?

    ...Orygunner...

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    Devils Advocate wrote:
    ...SNIP...
    I see the same thing for the police. Nobody is telling you to cop to a crime! The whole idea of saying NOTHING seems dumb to me if you are being stopped for a crime you know you did not do.

    IfI have not committed a crime I have a hard time believingI amgoing to convince the police I am the guy they want. Hell, saying nothing is going to be far worse in my opinion. It makes me look like I have something to hide.

    ...SNIP...
    You haven't actually watched the videos I posted in the OP, have you?

    Tell ya what, watch those. It'll only take a couple of hours, then tell me how talking to the police can help you. they're not a couple of dumb videos, either. The "Busted" is created by FlexYourRights.com. The other videos, Never Talk to the Police is by a lawyer/law professor and a police detective.

    If they have enough evidence (or a warrant) to arrest you, they're going to do it no matter what you say. If you say nothing, they may be suspicious, but suspicion is NOT enough to arrest you for a crime. For them to even detain you, it has to be Reasonable Articulatable Suspicion (RAS), and I don't think that failure to answer questions counts as RAS (anyone know if that's correct?).

    ...Orygunner...





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    Orygunner wrote:
    Thanks for the great responses so far. But to clarify a little bit:

    If I'm NOT going to say ANYTHING except the statements I've already made (That man attacked me, and I want him arrested), how can I fall into their "traps"?

    Of course if charged with a serious crime I'm not going to try to defend myself in a court of law! I agree that at that point I would probably be in over my head, but what I don't understand is what a lawyer is going to do for me at the investigation stage anyway? Do I tell my lawyer my story and he relays all the relevant information to the police? Because the LAWYER is telling what happened, it isn't any admission on my part and can't be held against me?

    What is the attorney going to do for me that I can't or shouldn't do for myself?

    Also, what if one of my family is with me if I have to use my firearm in self-defense? Can THEY relay the story to the police, or should they also remain silent?

    ...Orygunner...
    I agree with you here.

    We are smart enough to know when we need to request outside assistance.

    If we want to be "that cautious" why not put out hand on our sidearm every time we are approached by a stranger?

    Answer: Because we know when it is necessary and when it is not!!

    If you have done nothing wrong... a witness will only strengthen your statement and show what you said is true.

    If I were a cop.... your family not saying something would make me suspect they saw you do something wrong and do not want to rat on you.

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    Orygunner wrote:
    You haven't actually watched the videos I posted in the OP, have you?

    Tell ya what, watch those. It'll only take a couple of hours, then tell me how talking to the police can help you. they're not a couple of dumb videos, either. The "Busted" is created by FlexYourRights.com. The other videos, Never Talk to the Police is by a lawyer/law professor and a police detective.

    If they have enough evidence (or a warrant) to arrest you, they're going to do it no matter what you say. If you say nothing, they may be suspicious, but suspicion is NOT enough to arrest you for a crime. For them to even detain you, it has to be Reasonable Articulatable Suspicion (RAS), and I don't think that failure to answer questions counts as RAS (anyone know if that's correct?).

    ...Orygunner...
    I have seen the videos. In my opinion they are made by lawyers for lawyers. It helps get the guilty off easier in court.

    We are talking about people who have not committed a crime. If you have........ GET A LAWYER!!!

    I have been stopped before. A Sheriff ordered me into his car and checked the bottom of my shoes. He suspected I kicked in the door to a cabin during a burglary. I knew I did not do it and answered his questions.

    If I said nothing I am CONFIDENT he would be seeing me again and talking to people I know. I never heard from him again.

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    Devils Advocate wrote:
    SNIP I have seen the videos. In my opinion they are made by lawyers for lawyers. It helps get the guilty off easier in court.

    We are talking about people who have not committed a crime. If you have........ GET A LAWYER!!!

    I have been stopped before. A Sheriff ordered me into his car and checked the bottom of my shoes. He suspected I kicked in the door to a cabin during a burglary. I knew I did not do it and answered his questions.

    If I said nothing I am CONFIDENT he would be seeing me again and talking to people I know. I never heard from him again.
    Please review the Prof. Duane video.

    A problem in your encounter is that the real door-kicker could have had the same or similar shoe tread to yours. Skxxxx go the cuffs.

    Please do not confuse an inability to see legal risk with actual lack of legal risk.

    No one in your shoes can possibly know for certain thathe would "never hear from him again"during the encounter itself. He has all the facts. You have none.Only what he tells you, and only if he tells you the truth (deception is permissable.)

    One midwestern (?) state suspended executions because of the number of people on death row whose innocence was proven by later DNA testing. Innocent people do get charged and convicted.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Devils Advocate wrote:
    Orygunner wrote:
    You haven't actually watched the videos I posted in the OP, have you?

    Tell ya what, watch those. It'll only take a couple of hours, then tell me how talking to the police can help you. they're not a couple of dumb videos, either. The "Busted" is created by FlexYourRights.com. The other videos, Never Talk to the Police is by a lawyer/law professor and a police detective.

    If they have enough evidence (or a warrant) to arrest you, they're going to do it no matter what you say. If you say nothing, they may be suspicious, but suspicion is NOT enough to arrest you for a crime. For them to even detain you, it has to be Reasonable Articulatable Suspicion (RAS), and I don't think that failure to answer questions counts as RAS (anyone know if that's correct?).

    ...Orygunner...
    I have seen the videos. In my opinion they are made by lawyers for lawyers. It helps get the guilty off easier in court.

    We are talking about people who have not committed a crime. If you have........ GET A LAWYER!!!

    I have been stopped before. A Sheriff ordered me into his car and checked the bottom of my shoes. He suspected I kicked in the door to a cabin during a burglary. I knew I did not do it and answered his questions.

    If I said nothing I am CONFIDENT he would be seeing me again and talking to people I know. I never heard from him again.
    I apologize for assuming you hadn't seen the videos. And absolutely it makes sense that if you're guilty of a crime to clam up, because there's no sense in making it easier for the prosecutor.

    However, if you're innocent, haven't done anything, what do you have to fear? Sure, the chances are extremely slim that they're going to arrest the wrong guy, but it DOES happen, and what happens once they've arrested someone for a crime? Any further investigation and search for suspectsSTOPS at that point, unless you can be exonerated and then they'll start looking again.

    So in your case, what if he checked your shoes and they JUST happened to MATCH whatever he was looking for? What if your innocent answers to his questions put you near the location of the crime? You allowed a search with no reasonable suspicion, and only added more evidence to the case against you by admitting you were in the vicinity. NOW they've wrongly arrested their suspect and you helped them do it.

    I'm sure it's an extremely rare case that someone gets wrongly arrested, that even less are prosecuted, and even fewer of those are actually convicted, but it DOES happen, and I'm not willing to take that chance by helping it happen.

    I like the idea of answering any questions with a question. "Are you investigating a crime, officer?" Find out what they ARE looking for before telling them anything. It may be that they're investigating a robbery at the Shop'N'Go that I just drove by 5 minutes ago, and I sure as hell am not going to tell them I was anywhere in the area...

    I do agree with one of the previous posters that it really does depend on the circumstances. I understand the police have a job to do investigating crimes, but assisting them withsolving a crime falls much lower in priority to covering my own rear end. When in doubt, I'm not going to take the chance of somehow accidentally incriminating myself for something I didn't do.

    ...Orygunner...



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    Citizen wrote:
    Please review the Prof. Duane video.

    A problem in your encounter is that the real door-kicker could have had the same or similar shoe tread to yours. Skxxxx go the cuffs.

    Please do not confuse an inability to see legal risk with actual lack of legal risk.

    No one in your shoes can possibly know for certain thathe would "never hear from him again"during the encounter itself. He has all the facts. You have none.Only what he tells you, and only if he tells you the truth (deception is permissable.)

    One midwestern (?) state suspended executions because of the number of people on death row whose innocence was proven by later DNA testing. Innocent people do get charged and convicted.
    I agree with you.

    But the chances of the same tread are remote. What stops him from seizing my shoes and getting a search warrant. They would be evidence I could destroy and I suspect they can take them from me. So it really made no difference.

    I know the police can lie and I understand why. But I too can lie so it just makes us even during an interview. He can ask if I have ever been there and I can tell him the truth. No, I have never been to the cabin."

    How is this going to hurt me? What would my attorney say "My client has never been to the cabin." Then I can pay him $125 per hour he is doing the same crap I can do for myself.

    To me... pointless. I do not have that kind of money!! If I get caught breaking the law I will hire him and hope he can get me off. But since I am honest and do not commit crimes except speeding I do not see the need.

    You can try to convince everyone else here to get an attorney but I do not see the need as I donot fear being arrested. For all the years I have been on this planet I have spoke to many cops and none of them arrested me. Go figure!!

    DNA? Sure... there are a few cases where the convicted person was set free. But what does that have to do with lawyers? I guess you will say they talked and that got them convicted. I suspect there was more to it than that.

  17. #17
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    Devils Advocate wrote:
    SNIP To me... pointless. I do not have that kind of money!!
    This is a different consideration.

    If you don't havemoney or don't want to hire a lawyer for your own reasons, great.

    Please recognize that this is different from whether there is legal risk in cooperating andhow steep the risk. Especially when it comes to OC.

    I'min your shoes. I can't really afford to hire an attorney beyond getting me out of jail initially. I plan to ride it out, exercising my rights to the limit. At some point,the government would have to, colloquially speaking, return my shoes or appoint me an attorney.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
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    This is worth the $40, ten times over and then some:

    http://www.tacticalresponsegear.com/...oducts_id=3645



  19. #19
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    Orygunner wrote:
    I apologize for assuming you hadn't seen the videos. And absolutely it makes sense that if you're guilty of a crime to clam up, because there's no sense in making it easier for the prosecutor.

    However, if you're innocent, haven't done anything, what do you have to fear? Sure, the chances are extremely slim that they're going to arrest the wrong guy, but it DOES happen, and what happens once they've arrested someone for a crime? Any further investigation and search for suspectsSTOPS at that point, unless you can be exonerated and then they'll start looking again.

    So in your case, what if he checked your shoes and they JUST happened to MATCH whatever he was looking for? What if your innocent answers to his questions put you near the location of the crime? You allowed a search with no reasonable suspicion, and only added more evidence to the case against you by admitting you were in the vicinity. NOW they've wrongly arrested their suspect and you helped them do it.

    I'm sure it's an extremely rare case that someone gets wrongly arrested, that even less are prosecuted, and even fewer of those are actually convicted, but it DOES happen, and I'm not willing to take that chance by helping it happen.

    I like the idea of answering any questions with a question. "Are you investigating a crime, officer?" Find out what they ARE looking for before telling them anything. It may be that they're investigating a robbery at the Shop'N'Go that I just drove by 5 minutes ago, and I sure as hell am not going to tell them I was anywhere in the area...

    I do agree with one of the previous posters that it really does depend on the circumstances. I understand the police have a job to do investigating crimes, but assisting them withsolving a crime falls much lower in priority to covering my own rear end. When in doubt, I'm not going to take the chance of somehow accidentally incriminating myself for something I didn't do.

    ...Orygunner...
    Actually, I was a fantastic suspect since the cabin was behind my house!!

    He cannot arrest me based on the shoe pattern alone. Hell, even I know that!!

    He needs to match it up first since so many people have the same shoes. It is not a positive proof like a fingerprint unless it matches perfectly.

    He would have one more thing to prove I "could have" been there and since I was not.. no big deal to me.

    But I answered all his questions and explained where I was that day. This satisfied him and he never questioned me again.

    Had I shut up I would have stayed on his radar and probably would have more to worry about.

    Guys, I know how some of you distrust the police and fear they are all out to lock you up. I do not have that same feeling. I have met many cops that were cool and a few that were jerks. None every looked through my car or tried to just lock my ass up.

    I know when to get a lawyer. If I get caught doing acrime I will get one. But I am not going to get one just because the police want to ask a few questions.

    If I do not like where the questions are going I will stop the conversation and wait to be arrested. I cannot afford to get one every time a cop talks to me. That is just dumb in my opinion.

    I do not fear that the cops are out to get me. They can arrest me if they have evidence that points in my direction. I can understand that. But I am going to talk in hopes to stop that from happening.

    If I can avoid have to GET an attorney that is better for me. The alternative is to be arrested and have to get one to save my ass.

  20. #20
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    Citizen wrote:
    Devils Advocate wrote:
    SNIP To me... pointless. I do not have that kind of money!!
    This is a different consideration.

    If you don't havemoney or don't want to hire a lawyer for your own reasons, great.

    Please recognize that this is different from whether there is legal risk in cooperating andhow steep the risk. Especially when it comes to OC.

    I'min your shoes. I can't really afford to hire an attorney beyond getting me out of jail initially. I plan to ride it out, exercising my rights to the limit. At some point,the government would have to, colloquially speaking, return my shoes or appoint me an attorney.
    If I need to deploy my weapon and get involved in a shooting that will be a different matter than just talking to the police.

    Now I need to prove I was right in doing what I did.

    If I am a victim why would I NOT talk to the police. If I have to deploy by sidearm it will be because I was a victim of a crime.

    I am not going to deploy my sidearm at any other time that would be questionable. And if I do, I will know and get an attorney after I have been arrested. I sure as hell will not be telling the police things I did that were wrong either.

    But if they determine I was wrong I am getting locked up anyway. So I will take my chances. We all know that silence = something to hide. I, as a victim, have nothing to hide.

    But not choosing to go get an attorney for every police contact has nothing to do with money. I do not make much and want to keep what I got. I will decide on a case by case basis when I personally need one.

    I am an adult and will decide for myself. But I thank you all for your insight.

  21. #21
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    Devils Advocate

    There is something call the "Tachy Psyche Effect" you need to research.

    "Tachypsychia is a neurological condition that distorts the perception of time, usually induced by physical exertion, drug use, or a traumatic event. It is sometimes referred to by martial arts instructors and self defense experts as the Tachy Psyche effect. For someone affected by tachypsychia, time perceived by the individual either lengthens, making events appear to slow down, or contracts, objects appearing as moving in a speeding blur. It is believed that tachypsychia is induced by a combination of high levels of dopamine and norepinephrine, usually during periods of great physical stress and/or in violent confrontation."

    DONT talk to the police.



  22. #22
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    Bravo_Sierra wrote:
    Devils Advocate

    There is something call the "Tachy Psyche Effect" you need to research.

    "Tachypsychia is a neurological condition that distorts the perception of time, usually induced by physical exertion, drug use, or a traumatic event. It is sometimes referred to by martial arts instructors and self defense experts as the Tachy Psyche effect. For someone affected by tachypsychia, time perceived by the individual either lengthens, making events appear to slow down, or contracts, objects appearing as moving in a speeding blur. It is believed that tachypsychia is induced by a combination of high levels of dopamine and norepinephrine, usually during periods of great physical stress and/or in violent confrontation."

    DONT talk to the police.

    Why not? The moment will be over and the speed back to normal. The only thing distorted is time. Not the facts.

    I know exactly what you posted is like. You get a rush and everything moves in super slow-mo as your brain focuses your senses on what you see.

    This has nothing to do with your talking to the police later.

    When they arrest me I will get an attorney. To me silence = something to hide. When I have something to hide I will remain silent and get an attorney. Ha-Ha!

  23. #23
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    Devils Advocate wrote:
    SNIPTo me silence = something to hide.
    This is what we've been trying to tell you.

    Silence does not equal something to hide. The 5th Amendment was put there to protect the innocent citizen who would otherwise be ensnared by ambiguious circumstances. See the Prof. Duane video for the exact quote, from the Supreme Court, if I recall.

    Silence is a recognition that the other side has all the power while at the same time has all the human faults--makes mistakes, misinterprets what it sees or is told, has its own personal motives and prejudices, etc.

    This is not to dissuade you from your position otherwise. Its merely so you can see the picture more fully.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
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    To me, it's become clear that Devils Advocate is infatuated with the authority of the state. I've decided it's not worth wasting my time on someone with a view so worshipful of government and its agents and in such willful ignorance of reality.

    I mean, are there actually adults who truly believe something so trite and patently false as "silence = something to hide"?

  25. #25
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    Devils Advocate wrote:
    Bravo_Sierra wrote:
    DONT talk to the police.

    Why not? The moment will be over and the speed back to normal. The only thing distorted is time. Not the facts.

    I know exactly what you posted is like. You get a rush and everything moves in super slow-mo as your brain focuses your senses on what you see.

    This has nothing to do with your talking to the police later.

    When they arrest me I will get an attorney. To me silence = something to hide. When I have something to hide I will remain silent and get an attorney. Ha-Ha!
    Mr DA, you've not been involved in a violent confrontation where shots were being fired, have you? You, also, don't seem to have a full understanding of the Tachy Psyche.

    I was asked, "how many times did you shoot?" Needless to say, I didn't answer the "detective's" question. I lawyered up. Even though I had shot well before the question, I couldn't, for the life of me, recall as I told the "detective" I wanted my lawyer.

    When you start talking, you won't stop. I've seen it happen. Then you end up not only paying for the lawyer, you end up paying the unfucking fee he charges.

    There is nothing you can say to an officer to make him NOT arrest you. He is just a field reporter and will be going home at the end of his shift. The detective wants to hurry up and get you in jail so he can go home at the end of his shift.

    The best thing you can do, legally and financially, is not answer ANY questions.

    Even my wife & kids understand it's important not to answer any officers' questions on the scene.

    My lawyer will do the talking for me.

    Being quiet equals guilt to a lot of people because that's what they see on tv.

    Let me ask you this, what looks "guiltier" ...a person who says nothing or a person who changes stories?

    If not talking pisses off the police and the DA, oh well, they're not the ones that decide if I'm guilty or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Open Carry.org Member View Post
    I really disgree with this one! That means that we can have any yahoo running around with a gun with out the proper training. This really scares the hell out of me. Just my two-cents!
    Quote Originally Posted by KansasMustang View Post
    Joe Schmedlap out there with a loaded weapon thinking he's going to deter crime and he's not even trained to fire his weapon safely just kinda makes my hair on the back of my neck stand up.

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