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Thread: IMPORTANT: Please attend Nordyke Oral Arguments

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    http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=137800

    All,

    It is quite important for the actual Nordyke appeal that we pack the courtroom and the overflow. Our counsel would like to be able point out the large number of "The People" sitting in the courtroom that day who believe that this is an individual right that applies to California. Background on this case and why it is important here.

    We will be hosting an event after. If you can also attend that, please post that in this thread.

    To remind, the argument is Thursday January 15, 2009. The argument will start at 1:30 PM in Courtroom 1, 3rd floor of the James R. Browning US Courthouse.

    The address of the Court is:
    United States Court of Appeals - 9th Circuit
    95 Seventh Street
    San Francisco, California 94103

    This is at the corner of Mission and 7th and is one block from Civic Center BART. There are a couple of parking decks closer to the Convention Center that are easy walks.

    You must have government issued photo ID to get in the building. Note that no weapons, or knives of any kind are allowed inside the Courthouse building. Photography is also not permitted. I'm making sure the court can seat a few hundred "The People" for this case. Please wear business attire - we want to look impressive. I'll be in a suit and tie.

    A large showing of well dressed firearms owners will help prove the point that the Second Amendment matters.

    Edited to add: Please cross post this to other forums, blogs, etc. A very large turnout is very important.

    -Gene

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    I encourage OC advocates to wear an empty holster. Other gun owners and the 'right people' need to be shown that the OC movement is still strong and needs attention. Also, join or donate to the Madison Society! They have worked hard for your rights and deserve a little financial support for the time and money they've put into the Nordyke case.

    Hopefully the after party will be in a location where we will be able to OC.
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    This kinda' bothers me.
    I find it disturbing that a Judge might base his binding, legal opinion on how many people the litigants can pack into the courtroom.
    In San Francisco, I can only imagine what kind of freak-show this idea might inspire.

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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    I encourage OC advocates to wear an empty holster. Other gun owners and the 'right people' need to be shown that the OC movement is still strong and needs attention. Also, join or donate to the Madison Society! They have worked hard for your rights and deserve a little financial support for the time and money they've put into the Nordyke case.

    Hopefully the after party will be in a location where we will be able to OC.
    With GREAT respect for all you've done and been through (you know I mean that), I don't think I can tactically agree with open empty holsters at the hearing for the following reason.

    If the judge is already of the opinion that OC is a 2nd A. right, then the OCed empty holster will not change his opinion and has no effect on the issue. If the judge is not of that opinion at this time, or hasn't formed an opinion,in a case that doesn't directly deal with LOC (as UOC is what is done at gun shows in Ca and usually not in holsters) then the distraction which an empty holster may cause for the security personnel or other staffat the court (co-workers/ judges clerks etc... talk at the water cooler) is not worth the risk IMO is this case.

    We'll have UOC and possible LOC opportunities a-plentyif the decision is handed down in our favor.

    Remember the Ohio SC decision sparked the OC defense walks after the decision. I doubt the judges realized what would occur after their ruling. They may have been looking for a way to support the current (at the time) state CC prohibition rather then affirm an OC right for LOC as that wasn't an OC case.

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    The respect is mutual... and I think you may have a point. I'll leave the holster in the car until the after party.
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    Please excuse me if this is a dumb question, but whenever Nordyke comes up, people start talking about "incorporation" and how it will help our cause. What do people mean when they say "incorporation"?

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    From Wikipedia's entry on Incorporation:

    Amendment II Right to keep and bear arms
    • This provision has not been held to be incorporated against the states. See Miller v. Texas, 153 U.S. 535 (1894); Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886); United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875). However, the court has ruled that the second amendment codifies a pre-existing individual right to possess and carry firearms, which is not in any manner dependent on the Constitution for its existence.[13][/sup] See District of Columbia et al. v. Heller (2008). Because Cruickshank, Presser, and Miller predated the Supreme Court's modern incorporation cases, it now appears to be an open question as to whether the Second Amendment applies to the states. The issue is currently pending in the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in the case of Nordyke v. King.[14][/sup]

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I'll be there. Anybody have any idea about getting press accreditation to videotape the arguments?

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    marshaul wrote:
    I'll be there. Anybody have any idea about getting press accreditation to videotape the arguments?
    Just show up with a copy of the US Constitution... maybe highlight the First Amendment in case they don't know where to look.
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    No video or audio recording devices will be allowed in the hearing. Have the US Marshalls arrest you and you'll have good standing to challenge the policy. :P

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    If only the phonograph had been invented in the 1750s, we wouldn't have to put up with such tyrannical nonsense.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Haha, nice. I'll try to attend the oral arguments but I can't guarantee anything.

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    For those of us who would "like" to be there, but cannot, is there something [else] we can do to help this specific matter? Letters/emails to council and/or judges, etc?

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    JeepinCalifornia wrote:
    For those of us who would "like" to be there, but cannot, is there something [else] we can do to help this specific matter? Letters/emails to council and/or judges, etc?

    At this point I don't think so. Join Calguns.net, support the Calguns Foundation and NRA in Ca., support our false arrestees when that happens, and stay in the fight.

    Learn to UOC "smart" (have the brochures, dept. memos., recorder and friendlies intow)and do so as often as possible (and 5-10 K for a retainer as back up).


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    I'm not going for financial and personal reasons.

    The majority of the membership of Calguns are excessively cautious and overly politically conservative, with too much respect for the government and too little willingness to accept things like open carry, at this point or ever.

    Freedom never sleeps and never has an agenda. There either is or is not freedom, we should never accept a so-called "degree" of freedom.

    I understand that fighting in increments is their plan, but for every long step forward we take, we're knocked two back. We need other friends, and a willingness to fight with dirty defendants if necessary. They aren't willing.

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    SOneThreeCoupe wrote:
    I'm not going for financial and personal reasons.

    The majority of the membership of Calguns are excessively cautious and overly politically conservative, with too much respect for the government and too little willingness to accept things like open carry, at this point or ever.

    Freedom never sleeps and never has an agenda. There either is or is not freedom, we should never accept a so-called "degree" of freedom.

    I understand that fighting in increments is their plan, but for every long step forward we take, we're knocked two back. We need other friends, and a willingness to fight with dirty defendants if necessary. They aren't willing.
    I disagree. I think the CalGuns Foundation is very liberty-oriented. There are a few very loud dissenting opinions among the crowd on the forum, but that's to be expected. I think CGF has proven it backs open carry. It has financially/legally in the past, and those in charge have expressed moral support on top of that.

    I do like your ideas on freedom. However, we have a monumental war to fight. We have to pick our battles. We can't live by the motto "Live Free or Die," or we will certainly soon find all the patriots are dead. We live in a police state. Our ancestors allowed the government to slowly and methodically disarm the people and lull them into apathy. We are out-manned and out-gunned. A stand-up fight is not the way to win here.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    SOneThreeCoupe wrote:
    The majority of the membership of Calguns are excessively cautious and overly politically conservative, with too much respect for the government and too little willingness to accept things like open carry, at this point or ever.
    +1000000

    Edit: Why do you think I never post there, CA_Libertarian? :P

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    If you ever read over there, you may have noticed a lot more of the general forum members are coming around to accepting the idea. As I said before, those that sharply criticize OC are few, but loud. Luckily it seems the people that matter (e.g. Calguns Foundation and the Madison Society) are receptive to the idea.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Good point.

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    I'll be there.

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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    I disagree. I think the CalGuns Foundation is very liberty-oriented. There are a few very loud dissenting opinions among the crowd on the forum, but that's to be expected. I think CGF has proven it backs open carry. It has financially/legally in the past, and those in charge have expressed moral support on top of that.

    I do like your ideas on freedom. However, we have a monumental war to fight. We have to pick our battles. We can't live by the motto "Live Free or Die," or we will certainly soon find all the patriots are dead. We live in a police state. Our ancestors allowed the government to slowly and methodically disarm the people and lull them into apathy. We are out-manned and out-gunned. A stand-up fight is not the way to win here.
    Some are liberty-oriented (M.Sage comes to mind as the only liberty-oriented moderator or admin), and the CGF does fight some decent battles. The higher-ups, however, are more interested in how the website appears to the ignorant general public than how much truth is spread.

    They still believe in the State as an agent of freedom, as an arbiter of freedom, as a granter of freedom, though. We'll never win by asking the State for permission to be free.

    The Second Amendment is no magical amendment. It stands not alone, but with 9 brothers in arms. We have to reach out to the people who fight for the Fourth, and the First, and the Fifth, along with the others. We have to say this is no fight for the right to own guns, this is a fight for self-defense, for self-reliance, for being able to stand up for oneself. It is a fight for tools to level the field, to give someone smaller and weaker a true chance in situations where they'd normally have none.

    I'm not fighting for my right to keep and bear my Sig and my AR. I'm fighting for my right to keep myself free, safe from theft or harm. I'm fighting for my fiancee's right to keep herself free, safe from rape.

    /threadjack

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    M Sage is definitely not the only one - I don't want to start naming names because I might skip someone important... For me, it is enough for now that we have the moral support of CGF. They have simply stated they cannot financially/legally support OC at this time, and advise us to do so at our own risk. They are more concerned with CCW and OLLs. I hope someday they will see OC as a higher priority, but for now I am happy they are doing what they are doing.

    I agree on your view of the 2A. The 2A has two components: keeping and bearing. It seems many among the gun-loving crowd have forgotten about that second part. Like any other civil right, we should not be required to define how it will be used. We should not have to justify who we associate with or what we print or speak. We should enjoy similar liberty of arms. Laws should only prohibit acts that create victims.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Right. They are more concerned with OLLs than OC.

    It's almost some kind of a joke or something. Do these people expect to be taken seriously?

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    CGN is a big tent. If OCers want more attention and consideration there (and we've gotten a lot IMO and $$$$$ too)then we need to be more active over there and recruit more supporters by logically explaining our ideas and why we think it is the Right which needs to be supported first.

    All the other issues, CCW and OLL/AW etc...,are all components of the RKBA and are deseving ofour supporttoo!!!



    hat tip to mudcamper:

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