IMPORTANT: Please attend Nordyke Oral Arguments

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I'll be there.

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

I disagree. I think the CalGuns Foundation is very liberty-oriented. There are a few very loud dissenting opinions among the crowd on the forum, but that's to be expected. I think CGF has proven it backs open carry. It has financially/legally in the past, and those in charge have expressed moral support on top of that.

I do like your ideas on freedom. However, we have a monumental war to fight. We have to pick our battles. We can't live by the motto "Live Free or Die," or we will certainly soon find all the patriots are dead. We live in a police state. Our ancestors allowed the government to slowly and methodically disarm the people and lull them into apathy. We are out-manned and out-gunned. A stand-up fight is not the way to win here.

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Some are liberty-oriented (M.Sage comes to mind as the only liberty-oriented moderator or admin), and the CGF does fight some decent battles. The higher-ups, however, are more interested in how the website appears to the ignorant general public than how much truth is spread.

They still believe in the State as an agent of freedom, as an arbiter of freedom, as a granter of freedom, though. We'll never win by asking the State for permission to be free.

The Second Amendment is no magical amendment. It stands not alone, but with 9 brothers in arms. We have to reach out to the people who fight for the Fourth, and the First, and the Fifth, along with the others. We have to say this is no fight for the right to own guns, this is a fight for self-defense, for self-reliance, for being able to stand up for oneself. It is a fight for tools to level the field, to give someone smaller and weaker a true chance in situations where they'd normally have none.

I'm not fighting for my right to keep and bear my Sig and my AR. I'm fighting for my right to keep myself free, safe from theft or harm. I'm fighting for my fiancee's right to keep herself free, safe from rape.

/threadjack

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M Sage is definitely not the only one - I don't want to start naming names because I might skip someone important... For me, it is enough for now that we have the moral support of CGF. They have simply stated they cannot financially/legally support OC at this time, and advise us to do so at our own risk. They are more concerned with CCW and OLLs. I hope someday they will see OC as a higher priority, but for now I am happy they are doing what they are doing.

I agree on your view of the 2A. The 2A has two components: keeping and bearing. It seems many among the gun-loving crowd have forgotten about that second part. Like any other civil right, we should not be required to define how it will be used. We should not have to justify who we associate with or what we print or speak. We should enjoy similar liberty of arms. Laws should only prohibit acts that create victims.

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Right. They are more concerned with OLLs than OC.

It's almost some kind of a joke or something. Do these people expect to be taken seriously?

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CGN is a big tent. If OCers want more attention and consideration there (and we've gotten a lot IMO and $$$$$ too)then we need to be more active over there and recruit more supporters by logically explaining our ideas and why we think it is the Right which needs to be supported first.

All the other issues, CCW and OLL/AW etc...,are all components of the RKBA and are deseving ofour supporttoo!!!



hat tip to mudcamper:

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Sure, OLLs are a second-amendment issue, but most people use them for sport here in CA. There are plenty of good rifles for defense that are perfectly legal. It just seems like a foolish use of priorities. Lives are at stake, and they're worried about OLLs. :uhoh:

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marshaul wrote:

Sure, OLLs are a second-amendment issue, but most people use them for sport here in CA. There are plenty of good rifles for defense that are perfectly legal. It just seems like a foolish use of priorities. Lives are at stake, and they're worried about OLLs. :uhoh:

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OLL's are already a battle which has been long won as a result of battles within the purview of state laws only and the state constitution. The Calguns crowd essentially nullified the state AWB with OLL's. They also just nullified the Handgun Safety List with their NeRF method (Non Rosterable Firearm) receivers, and they have a few more things up their sleeve. They are essentially dedicated to making the the lives of the people at Bureau of Firearms a living hell for them, and this is WITHOUT the application of the 2nd amendment to California.

Until Nordyke is decided, there is no way that the 2nd amendment can be applied to California in a practical fashion in most circumstances. When that happens, then you'll see more in the way of OC activism. The case law is on our side that open carry IS the bearing arms talked about 2nd amendment.

Just because they don't publicly post every single future plan that they have doesn't mean that there isn't plans. It's simply the fact that NOTHING can be done with UOC, LOC, or CCW until Nordyke applies to the Second Amendment to the states.

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I'm quite familiar with the facts of the situation.

Lonnie Wilson wrote:

Until Nordyke is decided, there is no way that the 2nd amendment can be applied to California in a practical fashion in most circumstances. When that happens, then you'll see more in the way of OC activism.

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We can only hope. However, I have my doubts.

Most folks over at Calguns only want to OC to push the CC issue. This is absurd, because the state's may-issue LTC permitting is violative of the 14th amendment (incidentally, although Heller does help here, this was true even before Heller); thus, the best way to challenge it is (and has been) litigation, for which particular means OC activism is largely irrelevant. I'm not sure if this is the kind of OC "activism" we need more of from the Calguns folks.

(The Madison Society may be the group to win may-issue with the lawsuit they've promised us, and if so CGF won't get the credit for that.)

Furthermore, I don't see any efforts underway to reify, post-Nordyke, the implication in Heller that OC must be allowed if CC is licensed or prohibited. Nordyke itself won't do this directly, and until something else does Nordyke won't change the practicalities of OC in California, unless one personally has the financial means to challenge the loaded-OC prohibition in California all the way to the Supreme Court of California using Heller and Nordyke.

So, I kind of doubt the folks at Calguns who were disinclined to OC pre-Nordyke are waiting with bated breath and OWB holsters in hand for Nordyke so they can rush out the door to OC. :quirky

Although they certainly should be.

Maybe the CGF has promised to financially support OCers, even those of us who don't happen to be Marines, who are illegally charged post-Nordyke for UOC despite the legality under current state law and their Second Amendment right to bear arms?

Maybe the CGF is planning to do something real about PC 626.9?

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cato wrote:

If OCers want more attention and consideration there (and we've gotten a lot IMO and $$$$$ too) then we need to be more active over there and recruit more supporters by logically explaining our ideas and why we think it is the Right which needs to be supported first.

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Call me lazy but I myself am not inclined to help you there. Like I said I don't bother posting, and the reason for that is that I personally agree with SOneThreeCoupe's assesment:

SOneThreeCoupe wrote:

The majority of the membership of Calguns are excessively cautious and overly politically conservative, with too much respect for the government and too little willingness to accept things like open carry, at this point or ever.

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I count only wanting to OC in order to win CC and then never OCing again as falling into the category SOneThreeCoupe describes.

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SOneThreeCoupe wrote:

I'm not going for financial and personal reasons.

The majority of the membership of Calguns are excessively cautious and overly politically conservative, with too much respect for the government and too little willingness to accept things like open carry, at this point or ever.

Freedom never sleeps and never has an agenda. There either is or is not freedom, we should never accept a so-called "degree" of freedom.

I understand that fighting in increments is their plan, but for every long step forward we take, we're knocked two back. We need other friends, and a willingness to fight with dirty defendants if necessary. They aren't willing.

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Let's see:

1) Calguns Foundation helped fund the defenses of both the Oceanside and Santa Monica who got popped for OC charges. Both of those cases those charges were defended against.

2) Calguns Foundation warned very clearly that their foundation could notfund the defense offurther UOC/School zone charges as it was draining their budget. They were told if you get charged, you're on your own. Yet they still posted the thread in Calguns, and it looks like we'll be taking up a collection for Theseus anyway that'll be funded by members only.

3) Define dirty defendants. Are you talking about People v. Yarborough and People v. Flores? Those are state court cases which will mean absolutely jack because all of the lawsuits against the state's gun control laws will be filed in federal court, not state court.

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I am a CalGunner! Like cato said, it's a big tent. There are both conservatives and liberals over there. And there are some truely great folks doing truely great work for our rights, including Open Carry. Yes, no matter who you are or what your political stance is, you will find many CalGunners that offend you (I sure do!), but you will also find brethren there.

"We must all hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately"

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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=143064

All,

I've gotten some major updates for the Nordyke hearing. C-SPAN is set to receive a court order later today granting them permission to film the hearing. I believe but have not yet been able to confirm that it will be broadcast live on C-SPAN. I'll post those details when I have them.

The capacity of Courtoom 1 is approximately 60 persons. We'll first overflow into the cafeteria where there is closed circuit coverage of Courtroom 1 and if that's not enough room, we'll likely overflow into Courtroom 3. The court has been made fully aware of the expected crowd size.

Good news for LEOs. The US Marshals will be staffing up that day and should be able to accommodate checking your carry firearms. I don't think the court will allow CCW holders and other non LEO individuals to check weapons, but at least the officers among us will be taken care of. If you have a question, feel free to call the court and ask to speak to the Marshals. They are now expecting us.

I'll post more as the date approaches. Dinner will be held afterward at the Market Street Grill in the Whitcomb hotel. We should have the bar open from after oral argument through dinner. We'll have more details on dinner hopefully later today.

-Gene
__________________
Gene Hoffman
Chairman, The Calguns Foundation
DONATE NOW to support the rights of California gun owners.
Opinions posted in this account are my own and not the approved position of The Calguns Foundation

"The problem with being a gun rights supporter is that the left hates guns and the right hates rights" -Anon

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marshaul wrote:

(The Madison Society may be the group to win may-issue with the lawsuit they've promised us, and if so CGF won't get the credit for that.)

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Actually, it is my understanding that CGF is pumping funding into the Madison Society's case. Right now MS has only a few thousand dollars in the coffers, as all our money is tied up in the Nordyke case. So, CGF is actually quite instrumental in the CCW lawsuit.

The two groups are working together in many ways. IMO, both are 100 times better than the NRA. I think both deserve our respect and support.

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Well, fair enough.

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"The two groups are working together in many ways. IMO, both are 100 times better than the NRA. I think both deserve our respect and support."

+1 here.

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The NRA is also leading the fight on many front's here in CA.

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Thank you all who are attending and representing those of us who cannot attend the meeting.

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So, what happend at the Nordyke hearing? How was the arguments? When can we have a decision?

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Calguns is the lead site for that event. And in the 2A forum there is a sticky with some info and you can listen to orals too!! http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/view_subpage.php?pk_id=0000002641

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Got an Email from Calguns about the Nordyke, and looks like we are gaining ground.

Good deal, a small victory is better then none.

So its now up to the courts, to follow the law or not ! (Heller) ETC.

Always been an uphill battle for rights, however there does come a day of

"Reckoning" ! Robin47