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Thread: Selling firearms Face To Face

  1. #1
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    Hopefully you guys can help me out. I am looking at selling my Beretta PX4 Storm 9mm and moving over to a Glock 19. I keep all of my firearms in good condition and it has never gone more than 2 days with out cleaning.I have gotten a couple of offers from prospective buyers, but I have no idea how to go about a Face-To-Face transfer. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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    Yes you can do that, just make absolute certain that your buyer is legit (legal) to purchase a handgun (aka a purchase permit or a validated CCH license).

    If he is not legit, and you sell it to him anyway, you could find yourself in a lot of stinky doo-doo.

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    Malarky wrote:
    Hopefully you guys can help me out. I am looking at selling my Beretta PX4 Storm 9mm and moving over to a Glock 19. I keep all of my firearms in good condition and it has never gone more than 2 days with out cleaning.I have gotten a couple of offers from prospective buyers, but I have no idea how to go about a Face-To-Face transfer. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    The purchaser is required to have a permit to purchase from his county of residence if the transfer is conducted in the State of North Carolina. Because of that requirement, they'll also have to be 21 or older.

    Other than that, you're not required to keep any sort of record, but I'd recommend it. Write or type out a receipt, describing the firearm, model, caliber, and serial number. Have both people sign it, and make copies. That should cover you.

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    Very much appreciated!

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    N.C.G.S. § 14-402 prohibits any person from selling, giving away, transferring, purchasing, or receiving any handgun or crossbow unless the person has either a purchase permit or a North Carolina concealed handgun permit. If you're a seller, you must either take and keep the purchaser's purchase permit or make and keep a photocopy of the purchaser's concealed handgun permit.

    For the purposes of the purchase permit statute, only a North Carolina concealed handgun permit is valid. A person may not use a CHP from another state to acquire a handgun in North Carolina without a purchase permit.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

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    They have to live in the same state as you.

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    Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that a CHP works as a purchase permit.

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    WVCDL wrote:
    N.C.G.S. § 14-402 prohibits any person from selling, giving away, transferring, purchasing, or receiving any handgun or crossbow unless the person has either a purchase permit or a North Carolina concealed handgun permit. If you're a seller, you must either take and keep the purchaser's purchase permit or make and keep a photocopy of the purchaser's concealed handgun permit.

    For the purposes of the purchase permit statute, only a North Carolina concealed handgun permit is valid. A person may not use a CHP from another state to acquire a handgun in North Carolina without a purchase permit.
    where in that statute does it say that the person selling the gun must keep a copy?

    so far as ive ever seen, it only requires that the permit be presented... there are no records keeping, storage or audit requirements, at least not for private sellers.

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    mekender wrote:
    WVCDL wrote:
    N.C.G.S. § 14-402 prohibits any person from selling, giving away, transferring, purchasing, or receiving any handgun or crossbow unless the person has either a purchase permit or a North Carolina concealed handgun permit. If you're a seller, you must either take and keep the purchaser's purchase permit or make and keep a photocopy of the purchaser's concealed handgun permit.

    For the purposes of the purchase permit statute, only a North Carolina concealed handgun permit is valid. A person may not use a CHP from another state to acquire a handgun in North Carolina without a purchase permit.
    where in that statute does it say that the person selling the gun must keep a copy?

    so far as ive ever seen, it only requires that the permit be presented... there are no records keeping, storage or audit requirements, at least not for private sellers.
    Hey Mekender,

    It right there in bold italacs.

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    TFED12 wrote:
    mekender wrote:
    WVCDL wrote:
    N.C.G.S. § 14-402 prohibits any person from selling, giving away, transferring, purchasing, or receiving any handgun or crossbow unless the person has either a purchase permit or a North Carolina concealed handgun permit. If you're a seller, you must either take and keep the purchaser's purchase permit or make and keep a photocopy of the purchaser's concealed handgun permit.

    For the purposes of the purchase permit statute, only a North Carolina concealed handgun permit is valid. A person may not use a CHP from another state to acquire a handgun in North Carolina without a purchase permit.
    where in that statute does it say that the person selling the gun must keep a copy?

    so far as ive ever seen, it only requires that the permit be presented... there are no records keeping, storage or audit requirements, at least not for private sellers.
    Hey Mekender,

    It right there in bold italacs.
    You have quoted the AG's opinion not state statute... the statute reads


    § 14‑402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden. (a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol or crossbow unless: (i) a license or permit is first obtained under this Article by the purchaser or receiver from the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser or receiver resides; or (ii) a valid North Carolina concealed handgun permit is held under Article 54B of this Chapter by the purchaser or receiver who must be a resident of the State at the time of the purchase. It is unlawful for any person or persons to receive from any postmaster, postal clerk, employee in the parcel post department, rural mail carrier, express agent or employee, railroad agent or employee within the State of North Carolina any pistol or crossbow without having in his or their possession and without exhibiting at the time of the delivery of the same and to the person delivering the same the permit from the sheriff as provided in G.S. 14‑403. Any person violating the provisions of this section is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. (b) This section does not apply to an antique firearm or an historic edged weapon. (c) The following definitions apply in this section: (1) Antique firearm. – Defined in G.S. 14‑409.11. (2) Bolt. – A projectile made to be discharged from a crossbow. The bolt differs from an arrow in that the bolt is heavier and shorter than an arrow. (3) Crossbow. – A mechanical device consisting of, but not limited to, strings, cables, and prods transversely mounted on either a shoulder or hand‑held stock. This device is mechanically held at full or partial draw and released by a trigger or similar mechanism that is incorporated into a stock or handle. When operated, the crossbow discharges a projectile known as a bolt. (4) Historic edged weapon. – Defined in G.S. 14‑409.12. (1919, c. 197, s. 1; C.S., s. 5106; 1923, c. 106; 1947, c. 781; 1959, c. 1073, s. 2; 1971, c. 133, s. 2; 1979, c. 895, ss. 1, 2; 1993, c. 287, s. 1; c. 539, s. 284; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2004‑183, s. 1; 2004‑203, s. 1.)
    additionally records requirements are mentioned in the following:


    § 14‑405. Record of permits kept by sheriff. The sheriff shall keep a book, to be provided by the board of commissioners of each county, in which he shall keep a record of all licenses or permits issued under this article, including the name, date, place of residence, age, former place of residence, etc., of each such person, firm, or corporation to whom or which a license or permit is issued. (1919, c. 197, s. 4; C.S., s. 5109; 1959, c. 1073, s. 2.)

    § 14‑406. Dealer to keep record of sales. Every dealer in pistols and other weapons mentioned in this Article shall keep an accurate record of all sales thereof, including the name, place of residence, date of sale, etc., of each person, firm, or corporation to whom or which such sales are made, which record shall be open to the inspection of any duly constituted State, county or police officer, within this State. (1919, c. 197, s. 5; C.S., s. 5110; 1987, c. 115, s. 1.)
    as i said before, there is nothing in the STATUTE that says that private citizens are responsible for anything other than seeing (or presenting) a permit.

    Only dealers are required to keep copies of the permits when used in a sale.



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    mekender wrote:
    as i said before, there is nothing in the STATUTE that says that private citizens are responsible for anything other than seeing (or presenting) a permit.

    Only dealers are required to keep copies of the permits when used in a sale.

    While this is true, keeping the purchase permit, or a copy of the CHP is the ONLY way you can defend yourself against a charge of illegal transfer of ownership of a handgun, therefore it is highly recommended that you do so.



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    RayBurton72 wrote:
    mekender wrote:
    as i said before, there is nothing in the STATUTE that says that private citizens are responsible for anything other than seeing (or presenting) a permit.

    Only dealers are required to keep copies of the permits when used in a sale.

    While this is true, keeping the purchase permit, or a copy of the CHP is the ONLY way you can defend yourself against a charge of illegal transfer of ownership of a handgun, therefore it is highly recommended that you do so.

    what is there to defend against?

    "where is your paperwork?"

    "well officer, since there is none required by law, i dont have any"

    since there is no burden of receipt or of record keeping on the citizen, it becomes necessary for the state to prove you guilty. which i believe is how our justice system is supposed to work. i cannot imagine any jury convicting someone for violating a law that is so vague...

    this is a catch all just like countless others here in NC that are designed to be tossed in when a prosecutor wants to make sure that something sticks.

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    Well, let's say the gun ends up in the hands of a minor. You could be accused of giving a handgun to a minor. If you have the purchase permit, you are automatically (since it is included in the statute) immune to such a charge.

    More realistically, by having a copy of the either the purchase permit or CHP (which by law you MUST see before transfering ownership of the handgun) you can actually prove that you did in fact comply with the laws governing the sale of handguns. (especially important if the buyer of your handgun uses it illegally and the family of the punk's victim decides to sue you (since the punk and his family have no assets worth suing for.

    This is not an issue of whether you can be convicted by a jury of breaking the law, it is an issue of stopping criminal charges early in the process and protecting yourself against civil litigation.

    Personally, I think it is such an easy thing to do (take the permit or get a copy of the CHP), that is is silly not to keep the paperwork in with whatever records you keep of the serial numbers of your guns (in case tey are stolen), past tax returns, car titles, etc., etc.



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    What's the law with giving a handgun to a VA resident when I am a NC resident? Yes, I already did it. I gave it to my uncle. I don't see anything bad happening, just wondering if it was illegal for me to do this.

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    As a resident of North Carolina you MUST, either receive a copy of a NC pistol purchase permit or see that the recipient of the handgun has a NC Concealed Carry permit.

    Since your uncle is not a resident of NC, it would not have been possible for him to have either of these items, therefore, yes, transfering ownership of the handgun to him was a violation of NC law - if the transfer occurred in NC.

    If the transfer was done in Virginia? I don't know how that would affect the case since I do not know Virginia's laws on private gun sales/transfers of ownership.

    Additionally, it is likely that such a gift is a violation of Federal law, since certain weapons (such as handguns) under the 1968 Firearms are banned from the"transfer, sale, delivery or transportation of firearms into a state other than the transferor`s state of residence." (although inheritance is exempt from this) unless that transfer is conducted through an FFL.

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    DreQo wrote:
    The purchaser is required to have a permit to purchase from his county of residence if the transfer is conducted in the State of North Carolina. Because of that requirement, they'll also have to be 21 or older.

    Other than that, you're not required to keep any sort of record, but I'd recommend it. Write or type out a receipt, describing the firearm, model, caliber, and serial number. Have both people sign it, and make copies. That should cover you.

    To my knowledge in NC to acquire a Handgun Permit from your local Sheriff office you have to be 18 or older in age not 21 or older. Also for a FTF transfer between two non-holding FFL persons the age requirement for a legal transfer is 18 or older in age. Now where the 21 or older limitation comes in is when one holds a FFL because federal law states that a FFL holder may only transfer a handgun to a legal person that is 21 or older in age. So if ones has no FFL they can sale and legally recieve a handgun from someone that is 18 or older in age as long as the party also has no FFL. Also I do not believe that a person has to have the permit issued from his county of residence but just one issued by a NC county(one way to get one out of your home county is for buying for the act of collecting.)
    So for a non-FFL holding FTF transfer to be legal I think all these requirements must be met. Both parties 18 or older. Buyer has legit NC purchase permit or a NC CCW permit.
    Now IANAL; this is just my interpretation of the NC laws that I have read. It seems most believe that one is required to be 21 years of age because the NC statue references the Federal FFL requirement that transfer of handguns be done by people age 21 or older. But at same time it does not mention the FTF age requirement when parties do not hold a FFL. Also it seems it is legal for one that is age 18 or older to own a handgun. That ;in my interpretation; implies that a person that is not a FFL holder can transfer a handgun to another person that is not a FFL holder that is 18 or older since A:it legal for a 18 or older person NC resident to own a handgun and B: the statue references FFL holders when transferring a handgun ownership but fails to mention non FFL FTF situtations.
    If my interpretations seems wrong please let me know and give reason for I can make sure I stay legal.

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    JonathanH wrote:
    DreQo wrote:
    The purchaser is required to have a permit to purchase from his county of residence if the transfer is conducted in the State of North Carolina. Because of that requirement, they'll also have to be 21 or older.

    Other than that, you're not required to keep any sort of record, but I'd recommend it. Write or type out a receipt, describing the firearm, model, caliber, and serial number. Have both people sign it, and make copies. That should cover you.

    To my knowledge in NC to acquire a Handgun Permit from your local Sheriff office you have to be 18 or older in age not 21 or older. Also for a FTF transfer between two non-holding FFL persons the age requirement for a legal transfer is 18 or older in age. Now where the 21 or older limitation comes in is when one holds a FFL because federal law states that a FFL holder may only transfer a handgun to a legal person that is 21 or older in age. So if ones has no FFL they can sale and legally recieve a handgun from someone that is 18 or older in age as long as the party also has no FFL. Also I do not believe that a person has to have the permit issued from his county of residence but just one issued by a NC county(one way to get one out of your home county is for buying for the act of collecting.)
    So for a non-FFL holding FTF transfer to be legal I think all these requirements must be met. Both parties 18 or older. Buyer has legit NC purchase permit or a NC CCW permit.
    Now IANAL; this is just my interpretation of the NC laws that I have read. It seems most believe that one is required to be 21 years of age because the NC statue references the Federal FFL requirement that transfer of handguns be done by people age 21 or older. But at same time it does not mention the FTF age requirement when parties do not hold a FFL. Also it seems it is legal for one that is age 18 or older to own a handgun. That ;in my interpretation; implies that a person that is not a FFL holder can transfer a handgun to another person that is not a FFL holder that is 18 or older since A:it legal for a 18 or older person NC resident to own a handgun and B: the statue references FFL holders when transferring a handgun ownership but fails to mention non FFL FTF situtations.
    If my interpretations seems wrong please let me know and give reason for I can make sure I stay legal.
    you are correct... however i have never heard of anyone between 18 and 21 getting a permit... i know of several cases where people have been denied by the sheriff even though they would be legal under federal law.

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    The 18 to own and (usually) 21 to obtain a purchase permit is the catch .22 in NC.

    I have heard of a few (can count on one hand with a thumb and finger left over) instances when a purchase permit has ben issued to someone 18-21, but those situations have always been father-son gift or inheritance in families who are close friends with the sheriff of that particular county.

    Guilford County Sheriff requires applicant to be 21

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    WVCDL wrote:
    N.C.G.S. § 14-402 prohibits any person from selling, giving away, transferring, purchasing, or receiving any handgun or crossbow unless the person has either a purchase permit or a North Carolina concealed handgun permit....
    Let me get this straight...you need a permit in "Care'lynah" to buy a crossbow? :shock:

    I'm sure glad my great-grandfather had the sense to move his family to Virginia.

    Partemiso wrote:
    What's the law with giving a handgun to a VA resident when I am a NC resident? Yes, I already did it. I gave it to my uncle. I don't see anything bad happening, just wondering if it was illegal for me to do this."
    Uhhmm....yeah, you committed a felony in violation of the Gun Control Act. You legally were supposed to mail it to an FFL in VA for your uncle to pick up.

    Whether "anything bad" will happen depends on whether the gun ever ends up in the hands of a cop and he runs a trace and it comes back NC.

    I would get that gun back ASAP.

  20. #20
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    Only state in the union that requires it.

    Virginian683 wrote:
    WVCDL wrote:
    N.C.G.S. § 14-402 prohibits any person from selling, giving away, transferring, purchasing, or receiving any handgun or crossbow unless the person has either a purchase permit or a North Carolina concealed handgun permit....
    Let me get this straight...you need a permit in "Care'lynah" to buy a crossbow? :shock:

    I'm sure glad my great-grandfather had the sense to move his family to Virginia.

  21. #21
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    not sure why anyone would be surprised by that. an arrow projectile can be just as deadly as a bullet can.

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