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Thread: First time Open Carrying in LA...

  1. #1
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    And unfortunately, my last for a very long while. First I must apologize for leaving the scene as quickly as I arrived. I was.. occupied with my situation and school for a while..


    The reason I became so interested in carry rights in California is partly from being previously a Florida resident with a CCW license and loaded open carry experience in New Mexico and Arizona, but my interest really exploded when I heard my friend Anthony, a UPS driver who used to deliver to the UPS Store where I work in Marina Del Rey had been held up at gunpoint, in broad daylight at 9:00 in the morning during his routine deliveries to the AT&T store. I was shocked. And I was appalled that we live in a society where something like that was even possible without the citizens witnessing this event not raising a finger to help this man; or rather, being completely unable to assist being unarmed. Anthony could have been killed on the spot. His life was in the hands of a deranged criminal.


    As I was doing research toward getting the fabled California CCW permit, I found Opencarry.org and was shocked to learn that it was legal to open carry a firearm, granted it was unloaded. I printed out some of the fliers available for download made by Mudcamper and Decoligny and began passing out hundreds at school. I was very surprised at how well the idea of open carry resonated with my fellow students at El Camino College with less than a tenth of the students I spoke with holding strong anti-gun positions. I should have also realized how none of these students, including the people I spoke to on the day I carried, possessed absolutely no drive to take action and become involved in recovering our unique second amendment rights that the law abiding citizens of many other states in our great country enjoy.

    I chose Saturday, October 25th, after work to be my first day to open carry. Unfortunately I was relying on when the check I sent with my firearm registration was cashed as an indicator as to when my weapon was registered. Apparently they cash that check whether or not the registration can be completed. In any case, I wasn't too worried knowing that having arrived back in California recently, I still was within the allotted grace period of 60 days to register my gun. In any case, I knew it would still be light out and hoped that the other people out that evening would be laid back. When I closed up the store, I changed out of my work clothes and slid my holster onto my belt, locked my work clothes in my car, checked my gun (a Beretta M9) to make sure it was unloaded, and locked it securely in my holster next to a loaded clip holding 9 rounds of winchester hollow point ammo as required per California law.

    After a few minutes, of walking around, I started a conversation with a security guard who I knew as an acquaintance. I brought up the “incident” with Anthony and handed him a flier. After a few minutes he noticed I was actually armed. He was shocked but he thought it was great that someone would take the initiative and exercise our forgotten right. After a few more minutes of answering some of his questions, I directed him to opencarry.org.

    I stopped at Kinkos next to run off a few more fliers. I didn't receive any strange looks, and I doubt anyone even noticed I was armed. I left a few fliers at the desk when I paid and since I had not had dinner yet, I dropped by fat burger for a quick dinner. I had no unpleasant interactions or strange looks whatsoever.

    I then walked up to gamestop, browsed around for a while and left a flier for the clerk when I paid for a game.

    When I returned to my car, the police were waiting for me. I was ordered to the ground and they placed me in handcuffs and secured my weapon. The female officer who arrested me asked if was insane, and I replied calmly that I knew exactly what I was doing and that my actions were within California law and if she would like to reach inside my breast pocket, she could review a copy of the California penal code to verify my statements. After a few minutes several more officers arrived and in a subsequent search of my car they found my stack of copies of the penal code. Within the next few minutes, tensions were relieve and I discussed some light topics with the officers, like manufacture preferences, how long they were in service, what school one of the officers was attending, and of course my interest in later joining the force. All the while the officers were receiving sporadic communication with their Lieutenant.

    After nearly an hour they got the order: bring him in.

    I was detained for two days until which point I my father came down to bail me out. I immediately sought the best lawyer I could find. The DA has not filed charges and are holding the charges above my head, and are able 'reactivate' the case for to up to 3 years.

    My pistol remains in the possession of LE, pending the monumental paperwork process to get it released.

    I'm shocked at how I was treated. Every officer on the scene when I was detained acknowledge that I had no intention of wrongdoing. I had no other intention than to exercise my rights and attempt to inform anyone who was curious of these laws and anyone who may have been curious to my reasons.

    My reasons were simple: my friend was attacked and his life threatened. I took the only logical action of a law abiding citizen: explore the routes to which I may lawfully defend myself.

    I was not deserving of the treatment I received. Laws are meant to punish criminals and deter crime with the fear of punishment. Only a tyrannical government creates a law that oppresses the rights of law abiding citizens, of citizens with no criminal record; where the rights of those who live by the law are trampled. When those who are concerned with the safety and well-being of themselves and their families are cornered by laws that threaten to recognize those good people as criminals, our freedom will be lost.

    I'm deeply saddened to how far California has fallen.

    Even so, I have not given up my dream to become a law enforcement officer. I hold the men and women who risk their lives every day to uphold the law in the highest regard. I hope I will be able to accept such responsibility in the near future.

    And I hope to continue the fight for our Second Amendment rights; the right viewed most important to the founding fathers of our nation. I grew up in California and I refuse to by chased out by the tyrants who abuse their positions of power.

  2. #2
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    Although this situation was regrettable, what were you arrested for? That would be vital information.

    Did you have your voice recorder? A report? Names of the arresting officer(s)?

  3. #3
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    Apologies, I forgot to include those details.

    I was detained, and charged with PC12031 - A(1): Carrying a loaded weapon.

    I had my pistol secured with a strap in my holster, unloaded. I explained to the officers at the scene that PC12031 did not apply to me. Seems their boss didn't think so.

    The officer who arrested my is LAPD - Pacific Division, Officer Flemmings. Flemmings is a good man however. I do not place the blame on him or the other officers at the scene. They were under orders "from the top". Whoever they may have been I was not told. I believe most of the officers, Flemmings included, were understanding of my reasons for carrying.

    It goes the same for many of the german soldiers who ran the concentration camps yet went home to their wives and families. Though this situation is not as dire, the similarities are chilling: most people will not stand up to changing winds, no matter how evil they may be.


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    2 days in lockup? I think you just won the 2008 Most Oppressed award, my friend. This is by far the worst reaction I've heard of from LE. I hope you have a very good civil rights attorney lined up. We MUST make this nonsense come to an end. The only way to do this is through the courts.

    As much as you want to be a LEO, and as much as you respect them... Sadly, your political activism will very likely limit your job prospects, as will your arrest (even without charges). Further, as you point out, there are very few willing to stand up against the corruption in the system. They're more concerned about their paycheck than they care they are the tools of tyranny. I have no respect for any person that can be purchased, especially for what cops get paid... truly sickening.
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  5. #5
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    First, I'm sorry for the way you were treated. However, for the sake of all who are in this fight, every time the authorities respond in an unlawful manner they must be held accountable. If we just let it slide on 50 or 20 or 10 percent of the incidents they will never change how they respond. They need to receive a sharp stick in the eye each and every time they trample on rights.
    I am hoping that you will make a very noisy issue of this until they decide to do what is right.

    Thank you.

  6. #6
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    OK......PM sent.......

    For everyone else

    Tell us, at least in PMs, of this S%*t SOONER!

    The right people are being notified.

  7. #7
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    VigilanceOfFreedom wrote:
    Apologies, I forgot to include those details.

    I was detained, and charged with PC12031 - A(1): Carrying a loaded weapon.

    I had my pistol secured with a strap in my holster, unloaded. I explained to the officers at the scene that PC12031 did not apply to me. Seems their boss didn't think so.

    The officer who arrested my is LAPD - Pacific Division, Officer Flemmings. Flemmings is a good man however. I do not place the blame on him or the other officers at the scene. They were under orders "from the top". Whoever they may have been I was not told. I believe most of the officers, Flemmings included, were understanding of my reasons for carrying.

    It goes the same for many of the german soldiers who ran the concentration camps yet went home to their wives and families. Though this situation is not as dire, the similarities are chilling: most people will not stand up to changing winds, no matter how evil they may be.

    Nuremburg isNOT a defense. That officer broke the law, falsely arrested you, even after having the PC andCase Law spelled out clearly for him,and heand LAPD MUST be held accountable.


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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    2 days in lockup?* I think you just won the 2008 Most Oppressed award, my friend.* This is by far the worst reaction I've heard of from LE.* I hope you have a very good civil rights attorney lined up.* We MUST make this nonsense come to an end.* The only way to do this is through the courts.
    I almost had a hard time believing this story when I read it. If this is true, you MUST take immediate remedial action. "Detaining" you for two days when there is no evidence of any crime being committed is a serious breach of your civil rights. You must procure financial recompense.

  9. #9
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    Also check this out if you haven't seen it: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/car...t-12042008.pdf

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    flintlock tom wrote:
    First, I'm sorry for the way you were treated. However, for the sake of all who are in this fight, every time the authorities respond in an unlawful manner they must be held accountable. If we just let it slide on 50 or 20 or 10 percent of the incidents they will never change how they respond. They need to receive a sharp stick in the eye each and every time they trample on rights.
    I am hoping that you will make a very noisy issue of this until they decide to do what is right.

    Thank you.
    Exactly. As much as it plays into the accusation that we are 'lawsuit shopping,' we must make them pay. The ONLY way this is going to change is for the department budget to lose a significant amount of money. I wish reason or a sense of duty would be enough to get them to obey the Constitution. Unfortunately, this is not how LE work.
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    Alright Vigilance,

    Lets put these guys through the ringer.

    First we need to get the "right people" on this as stated above, and second organize an OC gathering in the area that you OC'd in.

    I suggest we find a good place and organize a protest during the day and then an OC dinner!

    If we can get about a dozen people for this...I will be willing to pay.



    VigilanceOfFreedom wrote:
    Apologies, I forgot to include those details.

    I was detained, and charged with PC12031 - A(1): Carrying a loaded weapon.

    I had my pistol secured with a strap in my holster, unloaded. I explained to the officers at the scene that PC12031 did not apply to me. Seems their boss didn't think so.

    The officer who arrested my is LAPD - Pacific Division, Officer Flemmings. Flemmings is a good man however. I do not place the blame on him or the other officers at the scene. They were under orders "from the top". Whoever they may have been I was not told. I believe most of the officers, Flemmings included, were understanding of my reasons for carrying.

    It goes the same for many of the german soldiers who ran the concentration camps yet went home to their wives and families. Though this situation is not as dire, the similarities are chilling: most people will not stand up to changing winds, no matter how evil they may be.

  12. #12
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    VigilanceOfFreedom wrote:
    And unfortunately, my last for a very long while. First I must apologize for leaving the scene as quickly as I arrived. I was.. occupied with my situation and school for a while..
    These facts appear so far out there that I do not understand why you have not found a lawyer to fiile a damage suit on contingency. How about posting some police reports to verify what you are talking about?

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    Mike wrote:
    VigilanceOfFreedom wrote:
    And unfortunately, my last for a very long while. First I must apologize for leaving the scene as quickly as I arrived. I was.. occupied with my situation and school for a while..
    These facts appear so far out there that I do not understand why you have not found a lawyer to fiile a damage suit on contingency.* How about posting some police reports to verify what you are talking about?
    +1

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    Thanks League,

    Ok, I'm looking into this. But is seems the OP is clear of prosecution if it hasn't happened yet. It appears that the officers wrote the report honestlyotherwise I'm sure the DA would have filed amisd. 12031 arrest at least (he was booked on the felony wobbler for the 12031 unregistered pistol option).

    Any further action is up to the OP. I would not recommend that he post any documents until he has reviewed his options.

  15. #15
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    From the details provided, the PD was SERIOUSLY out of line.

    You are entitled to a speedy trial, and should have pushed for such ASAP, instead of waiting in a cell for 2 days. The sooner it would have gone before the DA and/or a Judge with your well-knowledged lawyer by your side, the sooner you would have been out, sidearm in holster, free to follow the whole endeavor up with proper recourse and/or a formal apology/statement from the aforementioned department.

    But hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure many of us SoCal people are glad you got out of there. There is no reason whatsoever that a good-natured, law-abiding citizen should have to sit in a @#$%-tank like local lockup.

    Don't let them "hang" the charges over your head. Get them dropped ASAP.

    Then follow it up with a suit to get monetary damages and your lawyers' fees. Most legal firms love cases they can win easily and get paid by the losing side, especially when the losing side has a bigger wallet than you.

    Hit them where it hurts -- the checkbook.

    I will gladly offer what help I can, should you be needing assistance. If you can get a date for arraignment or a hearing, please do post it for locals to attend. The voice of one may be hard to hear, but the voice of many is harder to ignore.

    Edit:

    PS: If they're holding your firearm and your bail money but not going forward with pressing charges, it shows that truly their intent was to disarm you and deprive you (or whomever paid the bail) of your hard-earned cash. This seems almost extortionate IMHO. Policy and/or behavior like this should be dealt with swiftly and aggressively.
    /rant
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

  16. #16
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    Definitely get all the documentation you can: reports, dispatch logs, audio, video, etc. Anything you can get your hands on. This is going to be important in the future, when the time comes to file 'the big one' for open carry. The systematic deprivation of our rights will not go unanswered.

    I know from my experience with a reluctant department that gathering this information can take time. If you need any tips on the procedure, feel free to PM me.
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    I don't see anything wrong with testing the officials and seeing if they will follow the letter of the law. I say open carry only for the purpose of testing the authorities is perfectly fine. The only way our right will be protected is when the government loses in court and is sued for their crimes. And crimes they are.

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    tito887 wrote:
    I don't see anything wrong with testing the officials and seeing if they will follow the letter of the law. I say open carry only for the purpose of testing the authorities is perfectly fine. The only way our right will be protected is when the government loses in court and is sued for their crimes. And crimes they are.
    Exactly..I am not from California but from Washington and its good to know we have brothers fighting for this same cause down there....we like to joke about California's gun laws up here....Good luck....maybe if we can get enought people on this site from all over United States we can make a change.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Yeah VigilanceOfFreedom,

    Please keep us informed also. Looks like you will have a big lawsuit going both state and federal.

    We don't do this for money, but 2 days in jail is a BAD violation of law !

    We are allwith you Bro ! Robin47

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    LeagueOf1607 wrote:
    Also check this out if you haven't seen it: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/car...t-12042008.pdf
    Yes. Make sure all the officers, their boss, and the DA all get a copy of this.



  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Also check out this recent LA District Attorney Open Carry memo:

    http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/car...rying_Guns.pdf

    Cato hypothesized it may have resulted from your case...


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    If it were me, I'd give them notice that notwithstanding the coming civil suit, a charge of a fee plus interest for the use of my bail funds; and a charge of a fee plus interest for possession of my property dating from the day of the false imprisonment until receipt of payment in full!!!


    Take the case of a local officer who persists in enforcing a type of ordinance which the Court has held invalid as violative of the guarantees of free speech or freedom of worship. Or a local official continues to select juries in manner which flies in the teeth of decisions of the Court. If those acts are done willfully, how can the officer possibly claim that he had no fair warning that his acts were prohibited by the statute? He violates the statute not merely because he has a bad purpose but because he acts in defiance of announced rules of law. He who defies a [325 U.S. 91, 105] decision interpreting the Constitution knows precisely what he is doing. If sane, he hardly may be heard to say that he knew not what he did. Of course, willful conduct cannot make definite that which is undefined. But willful violators of constitutional requirements, which have been defined, certainly are in no position to say that they had no adequate advance notice that they would be visited with punishment. When they act willfully in the sense in which we use the word, they act in open defiance or in reckless disregard of a constitutional requirement which has been made specific and definite. When they are convicted for so acting, they are not punished for violating an unknowable something.
    SCREWS v. U.S., 325 U.S. 91 (1945)

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    Yea, it probably did. They put a lot of emphasis on :

    Under this definition, neither § 12025 nor § 12031 is violated merely because a person openly carrying an unloaded firearm in a belt holster has matching ammunition on him, or close at hand.

    which is I was telling the arresting officers. In any case I'll forward this memo to my attorney and try to get the charges dropped. The DA has not filed charges but intends to hold the charges above my head until the statute of limitations makes it impossible to file the charges. This abuse of power us unacceptable and I will not give in to these petty threats.

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    ".

    .

    holding 9 rounds of winchester hollow point ammo as required per California law.

    .

    ."



    What law is this?

    H.P. is definitely a good idea, but neither it, not Winchester, is mandated by law. And you could have ten rounds, or even more in legally posessed higher capacitymagazines

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    What ever happened with this?
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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