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Thread: How to react to mass-murder scenarios

  1. #1
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    Reaction for most folks here will be "DUH!".



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FuIbujpLWA

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    DUH .... oh you already said that...
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Campaign Veteran XD-GEM's Avatar
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    2 things the officer said stood out:

    "When seconds count, you don't have 10 minutes."

    "These things happen in gun-free zones."

    Um.....I think I heard these somewhere before.

    It was interesting, however, that the REPORTER said that the "Gun Free School Zone" sign might actually ATTRACT active shooters. Is this going to start a trend among reporters? It's too soon to tell; but the idea, might just catch on. (Back to you, now.)

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    That video should be required viewing for all public officials and mall owners!

    TFred


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    Did you see that news anchor at the end? She almost got up in disgust at the article and rolled her eyes towards her co-anchor. I can't believe how unprofessional these antis are when it comes to the topic of guns. They just can't be rational, almost like it's a medical problem that needs to be cured. I think that has to be it, because how many times have you tried to rationally discuss the subject of gun ownership and the Second Amendment, and had people like this lose their cool for no reason and really just start attacking you? I have at least a couple times. Anyone who does not do this, usually is simply misinformed about gun ownership, usually directly by someone like this woman, who spend their time spreading lies about gun ownership because of their mental disorder. If you talk to these people and show them evidence that goes against what they were told, they usually come around and will even become gun owners themselves.

    That's it, I need a research grant. We'll cure these people of their gun phobia with science, or something like that......I may just spend the money on taking these people to the range so I can get some shooting in and then write a paper that sounds good.

    Seriously though, that was a good news story. Good to see some unbiased reporting from the networks for once.

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    Yup. Duh.

    I've got a youtube account, so I left a comment for 'em.

    One of the related was an interview with an Arizona politician pushing for allowing licensed concealed carry on public college campuses. And the media talking head doing the interview agrees with her! Amazing!

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    PavePusher wrote:
    Reaction for most folks here will be "DUH!".*

    *

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FuIbujpLWA
    This is part of the knee jerk reaction that came out of Columbine. Probably the only good thing to come out of it.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    nitrovic wrote:
    PavePusher wrote:
    Reaction for most folks here will be "DUH!".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FuIbujpLWA
    This is part of the knee jerk reaction that came out of Columbine. Probably the only good thing to come out of it.
    Columbine happened in April 1999. This report aired in November 2008. Knee jerk? In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya, "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

    They did discuss the change in tactics that came about as a result of Columbine, then they continued with the main point of the story, which is that those tactics are now thought to be insufficient, especially if they have to wait any amount of time for the 3-5 additional people to show up before they can form their diamond formation.

    On a very important side note... while looking up the original posting of this video, I ran across this update below. It is well worth the read, and even briefly mentions the Texas Open Carry issue.

    Still astounds me that this is "mainstream" reporting...

    TFred



    (UPDATE 11/21/08 by Anchor/Reporter Brendan Keefe):

    We have received many requests about the source for our assertion that most mass murders have occurred in otherwise "gun free" zones.

    The experts are Ron Borsch from SEALE Academy in Bedford, Ohio and John Benner from Tactical Defense Institute.

    A summary of Borsch's study can be found here.

    We also conducted our own analysis of mass murders in the U.S. The vast majority occurred in schools or on college campuses where firearms are banned as a matter of state statutes. Others took place in post offices where firearms are banned as a matter of federal law. Most of the rest took place in shopping malls or other businesses where the owners posted signs prohibiting firearm possession by anyone including those with CCW permits.

    In some states, like Ohio, those signs have the force of law and violators are prosecuted under the relevant statute. In other states, like Texas, the signs are considered trespass notices and violators are first asked to leave, then they are arrested for trespass if they decline (of course, if your weapon is visible, it's no longer concealed and there are other potential legal consequences).

    Based on data from the SEALE study, an analysis by TDI, and our own painstaking research, we are able to say definitively that most "active killer" shootings have occurred in so-called "gun free" zones. The experts who say they may be "invitations" are also John Benner and Ron Borsch who have six decades of law enforcement experience and training between them.

    The Luby's Cafeteria shooting in Killeen, TX in 1991 took place before Texas adopted its Florida-style CCW law. In fact, that mass murder of 23 people was used as an example by those seeking to enact the CCW legislation.

    It is accurate to say firearms were banned in Luby's at that time because there was no uniform concealed carry law in place in 1991. In fact, several victims and survivors had legally owned handguns in their cars at the time of the shooting.

    While that shooting was not addressed in our story, it and others over the last 40 years were analyzed in our investigation.

    As journalists, we are not interested in entering into the heated debate over gun control. We are, however, interested in reporting the facts. In this story, the facts point to the active shooters ignoring gun prohibitions and perhaps selecting those locations because they are "soft targets" where no resistance would be found.


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    Ohio just has the same trespassing penalty that Texas does if you ignore private "no guns" signage at malls, say. If you're in an "officially" designated "no-gun zone" (school, court, etc), then it's rather more serious.

    -ljp

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    Regular Member opusd2's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, I just have to say it. DUHHHHH! Just now they figure out that gun free zones are invites to idiots looking to cause mayhem? Wow, for once I feel ahead of the curve.

    Holy crap! There are some intelligent people out there. In all the years I went to school, ok by that I mean in the years I did my grade school and high school in the normal amount of time, we never had a cop sitting around looking for problems. That's because we had respect for life when I was growing up. If we had an issue with someone, there may have been a fight or so after school hours, but the idea of going POSTAL was never considered.

    As far as I am concerned, there are just too many idiots in positions of power who are looking to justify methods of exerting power and control over the common citizen by placing LEOs where they were never needed when even our grandparent's grew up. And I heard stories of moonshine and dynamite being brought to school for after school activities.

    And I will say this; if when I was in high school and some punk decided to shoot things up a little he would have been taken down by a bunch of us pissed off farm boys who didn't put up with crap. You'd be suprised how well a book can be flung across the room and how it hurts like hell.

    Oh crap, I just gave a reason to outlaw and ban books. Farenheit 451 here we come!
    I aim to misbehave

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    TFred wrote:
    nitrovic wrote:
    PavePusher wrote:
    Reaction for most folks here will be "DUH!".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FuIbujpLWA
    This is part of the knee jerk reaction that came out of Columbine. Probably the only good thing to come out of it.
    Columbine happened in April 1999.* This report aired in November 2008.* Knee jerk?* In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya, "I do not think that word means what you think it means."*

    They did discuss the change in tactics that came about as a result of Columbine, then they continued with the main point of the story, which is that those tactics are now thought to be insufficient, especially if they have to wait any amount of time for the 3-5 additional people to show up before they can form their diamond formation.

    On a very important side note... while looking up the original posting of this video, I ran across this update below.* It is well worth the read, and even briefly mentions the Texas Open Carry issue.

    Still astounds me that this is "mainstream" reporting...

    TFred



    (UPDATE 11/21/08 by Anchor/Reporter Brendan Keefe):

    We have received many requests about the source for our assertion that most mass murders have occurred in otherwise "gun free" zones.

    The experts are Ron Borsch from SEALE Academy in Bedford, Ohio and John Benner from Tactical Defense Institute.

    A summary of Borsch's study can be found here.

    We also conducted our own analysis of mass murders in the U.S.* The vast majority occurred in schools or on college campuses where firearms are banned as a matter of state statutes.* Others took place in post offices where firearms are banned as a matter of federal law.* Most of the rest took place in shopping malls or other businesses where the owners posted signs prohibiting firearm possession by anyone including those with CCW permits.

    In some states, like Ohio, those signs have the force of law and violators are prosecuted under the relevant statute.* In other states, like Texas, the signs are considered trespass notices and violators are first asked to leave, then they are arrested for trespass if they decline (of course, if your weapon is visible, it's no longer concealed and there are other potential legal consequences).

    Based on data from the SEALE study, an analysis by TDI, and our own painstaking research, we are able to say definitively that most "active killer" shootings have occurred in so-called "gun free" zones.* The experts who say they may be "invitations" are also John Benner and Ron Borsch who have six decades of law enforcement experience and training between them.

    The Luby's Cafeteria shooting in Killeen, TX in 1991 took place before Texas adopted its Florida-style CCW law.* In fact, that mass murder of 23 people was used as an example by those seeking to enact the CCW legislation.

    It is accurate to say firearms were banned in Luby's at that time because there was no uniform concealed carry law in place in 1991.* In fact, several victims and survivors had legally owned handguns in their cars at the time of the shooting.

    While that shooting was not addressed in our story, it and others over the last 40 years were analyzed in our investigation.

    As journalists, we are not interested in entering into the heated debate over gun control.* We are, however, interested in reporting the facts.* In this story, the facts point to the active shooters ignoring gun prohibitions and perhaps selecting those locations because they are "soft targets" where no resistance would be found.
    As I stated prior, a lot of jurisdictions changed their response policy to the above paste/copied response after Columbine (hence the phrase "knee jerk). I thought that was clear, I guess not.

    The "sending in the first officer alone" scenario can be used by very small departments with long back up officer response times. The diamond 5 or 4 man has proven to work very well in real world and training. Most schools have a high number or classrooms and large common areas. It is tactically superior to have the 4 or 5 man (usually one of the trail guys has a shotgun or AR). But, if your department only has 1 or 2 officers on duty, you work with what you have. For communications purposes (command/control) alone, I can't imagine a one officer response to an active shooter.

    Anyway, this is yet another reason for gun rights of citizens. Surprise and initial speed beats any response by a tac unit in my opinion

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I thought you were referring to the story itself, not the tactic.

    And I do so love any opportunity to quote Inigo Montoya... it allows me to believe that all those brain cells holding The Princess Bride quotes are not really being wasted.

    TFred


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    nitrovic wrote:
    Surprise and initial speed beats any response by a tac unit in my opinion
    +1

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    (UPDATE 11/21/08 by Anchor/Reporter Brendan Keefe):


    As journalists, we areinterested in reporting the facts.
    Wouldn't it be great if this were true 100% of the time!

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    PavePusher wrote:
    Reaction for most folks here will be "DUH!".



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FuIbujpLWA
    no DUH.....are they just NOW realizing that gun free zones are an invitation to mass murder?



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    TFred wrote:
    That video should be required viewing for all public officials and mall owners!

    TFred
    Neither would be able to understand that video--it requires the use of common sense and logic.

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    opusd2 wrote:
    I'm sorry, I just have to say it. DUHHHHH! Just now they figure out that gun free zones are invites to idiots looking to cause mayhem? Wow, for once I feel ahead of the curve.

    Holy crap! There are some intelligent people out there. In all the years I went to school, ok by that I mean in the years I did my grade school and high school in the normal amount of time, we never had a cop sitting around looking for problems. That's because we had respect for life when I was growing up. If we had an issue with someone, there may have been a fight or so after school hours, but the idea of going POSTAL was never considered.

    As far as I am concerned, there are just too many idiots in positions of power who are looking to justify methods of exerting power and control over the common citizen by placing LEOs where they were never needed when even our grandparent's grew up. And I heard stories of moonshine and dynamite being brought to school for after school activities.

    And I will say this; if when I was in high school and some punk decided to shoot things up a little he would have been taken down by a bunch of us pissed off farm boys who didn't put up with crap. You'd be suprised how well a book can be flung across the room and how it hurts like hell.

    Oh crap, I just gave a reason to outlaw and ban books. Farenheit 451 here we come!
    I also grew up in a era when had respect for life. Alsoour parentswouldn't go to jail for spanking us. The old saying it takes a village to raise a child was alive and well where I grew up you might be a block away from home but if you did something you were not supposed to you got chewed and your parents found out also.
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



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    Regular Member opusd2's Avatar
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    Exactly. In fact the neighborhood where my folks still live (where I grew up, and where I am just down the road), it's still pretty safe and small town. My nieces live just down the road and when the youngest was 2 she grabbed her dolly and walked down the road to my parents place because her mom and dad were still sleeping. Since she walked past me, I got on the Hardley and followed her to make sure she was fine.

    Since the laws today are so vague about how to punish kids, I can't admit to ever spanking someone (other than a VERY good friend, but that's a different story) especially admitting my nieces or nephew ever got spanked, but I will say that they do know what is right and wrong.

    My youngest brother was a pain in the ass during his time at home. He was brainwashed by the schools that if he ever got a spanking he was being mistreated, and at one point after he initiated a fight with his brother and even after throwing the first punch called the police because his brother that was 8 years his elder gave him a shove.

    There is no means of teaching right or wrong anymore where you can even give a slap on the wrist. Those are reserved for pro-athletes like OJ and Colbe. So how do you manage?

    Back to the topic, I will say that I don't depend on any government body to come and "protect me" - read : run the chalk lines around me if something should happen. And if I can teach my son to be independent with a sense of morality and principles I will. Maybe someday he will be rich enough to buy the kind of freedoms that a lot of celebrities seem to enjoy, but I don't and won't. I live by principle.

    And if he ever get's in trouble in school for something that violates my beliefs and principles or morality, you can be DAMN sure that I will (like my dad did when I was in grade school and got shafted into a corner and made to walk home 3 miles in the winter - YEAH - We were all friggen happy over that one.) go in and fight for the rights my son was born into as a US Citizen. Screw political correctness, if you do what is right you can never be wrong. That's black and white, there are no political gray areas in right and wrong.
    I aim to misbehave

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    I think the stats and info in the article posted by TFred, as partially discussed by Vic, strongly bolster the argument that a decently trained armed civilian, moving quickly and decisively not only has a good chance of surviving an active killer scenario but has a good chance of ending the shooting spree and saving lives even if the shooter is better armed.

    The place I usually train has a tiered training program and I have completed all the prerequisite classes for the tactical handgun class which I need to take in the spring. After that (and getting a new stock for my shotgun) I need to take the tactical shotgun class, the AR-15 class and then the CQC class which includes active killer scenarios. Since it is not practical for me to get out to some place like Front Sight in the near future I'll do what I can to get more training.

    While I hope to never face an active killer scenario in real life, if I do, I intend that my wife, any other loved ones and I are among the surivivors and if I have to aggressively engage the shooter to make that happen I'm going to do everything I can to make sure I know how to do so in the most effective manner possible.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    TFred wrote:
    nitrovic wrote:
    PavePusher wrote:
    Reaction for most folks here will be "DUH!
    This is part of the knee jerk reaction that came out of Columbine. Probably the only good thing to come out of it.
    Columbine happened in April 1999. This report aired in November 2008. Knee jerk? In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya, "I do not think that word means what you think it means."
    Utterly "inconceivable!"

    My frequent day dream in church while the pastor is sermonizing is how to respond to a shooter in a church full of parishioners unarmed. I WILL convince him that I am armed and will crush him regardless of the consequences. I've thought this through many times so that, hopefully, it will be easy.

    Cowards die many times before their deaths;
    The valiant never taste of death but once.
    Of all the wonders that I yet have heard,
    It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
    Seeing that death, a necessary end,
    Will come when it will come.

    Julius Caesar. Act II, Sc. I, Line 32

    Shakespeare

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    This was a good video and then I watched the video about England and Australia and how they lost their guns.

    2 things stuck out to me:

    1) The politicians and those whose aim it is to ban our tools will capitalize on our not being a cohesive unit

    2) The gentleman who said (because of #1), join the NRA.

    Ive been holding off on where I planned on putting my money with regards to this issue and this gentleman made sense.

    We need to have a united front. There is no other way.



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    United by a principle or a principal?

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    Thou art the wordsmith no?

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    Regular Member opusd2's Avatar
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    Just a cunning linguist, I imagine...

    I will report that most of my firearms training were from my ex-Vietnam dad who was a distinguished rifleman and although he had his share of cabbage, it never stayed on his chest very long due to "comments of negative natures" to the CO who nearly got most of the men killed. More of my training came straight from the USAF when out in excercises playing with the moany toys at my disposable, and the remainder came from growing up shooting every kind of arm at most forms of pest and target.

    The point of all this is that anyone with a fair amount of training and a cool head in crisis situations can bring about change to a very negative situation. And a negative situation could be anything form a crazy idiot with no regards for human life (much less his own) or someone coming to relieve us of our personal belongings of ANY sort, even by those elected to protect us.

    The day is coming, it's in the wind. I would never say it's me, but if you listen to enough of the chatter and read enough diatribe, the writing is on the wall
    I aim to misbehave

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    opusd2 wrote:
    ...

    The point of all this is that anyone with a fair amount of training and a cool head in crisis situations can bring about change to a very negative situation. And a negative situation could be anything form a crazy idiot with no regards for human life (much less his own) or someone coming to relieve us of our personal belongings of ANY sort, even by those elected to protect us.

    The day is coming, it's in the wind. I would never say it's me, but if you listen to enough of the chatter and read enough diatribe, the writing is on the wall
    + III


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