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Thread: Where is the reasonable suspicion??

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    http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2008/1...-of-crime.html




    Friday, December 19, 2008 Where's the Reasonable Suspicion of a Crime? From Ed Stone:
    David,

    Please read this police report about an arrest of a person openly carrying a pistol for obstruction for refusing to identify himself and tell me what reasonable suspicion of a crime existing to detain this man and force him to identify himself.

    This is not an incident I have previously reported to you, as it just happened. This is the same jurisdiction I wrote this letter and with which we have had other issues. Think they have it out for our members?

    http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f4...IMG_0001-1.jpg

    http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f4/rmodel65/IMG-6.jpg

    http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f4...IMG_0002-1.jpg

    What is in the water down there?

    ED


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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Just a few things that jumped out at me.....





    "...Mr. Belt was advised that by Ofc. Scott hat(sic) we were invesitgating the reported weaons incident and that he..... should ..... show ID when requested by law enforcement officers..."
    An officer is certainly allowed to request ID; he's also entitled to request that you tell him the time of day, who won the ballgame last night, or if his uniform makes his ass look fat. Requesting is not requiring. You are required to obey laws and ordinances, not requested to obey them.


    "...I also asked Mr, Belt to show his ID..."
    Same as above, he could have asked Mr Belt to tighten his belt a notch just as easily.

    "...I informed Mr Belt that he was required by law to produce his ID when asked by law enforcement ...."
    Ahhh, now it's a Requirement. I had always thought there were certain conditions where an Officer could demand identification and that even then the Supreme Court had ruled that one was properly identifed by stating one's true name. Georgia not requires one to carry State Issued Identification 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year should the circumstance arise that law enforcement requests to see it?
    Could a brotha get a cite please?


    "... since he refused to produce his ID or he was under arrest...."
    I'm not quite sure how to read this but I guess it was stated as '...since you have refused to show me your state issued identification as required under Ga Code xx-xx-xxx, I'm placing you under arrest for violating that GA Code section."

    Hmmmm... he was being detained for suspicion of having recently committing, or presently committing, or being about to commit a 'weapons incident' but because no crime was being committed he is arrested for refusing to produce ID in violation of GA Code .......
    16-9-4 False or forged identification
    16-9-121 Identify fraud or theft
    16-9-122 Identify theft - Conspiracy/Attempt
    16-9-126 Identity theft, Penalties
    ...or, none of the above?




    "... up until that time we had no idea who we were dealing with and we had tried to explain to Mr Belt that we had to be sure he was not a convicted felon carrying a gun..."

    How about...
    "... we stopped Mr Belt as he was walking down the sidewalk with evidence of an MP3 player in his pocket because we had no idea who we were dealing with and we felt we had to be sure he was not a burglar with a stolen MP3 player in his pocket"

    "... we stopped Mr Belt, who was driving down the road and comitting no traffic infractions, because we had no idea who he was and we had to be sure he was not under a court ordered suspension of his driving privleges."

    "... we stopped Mr Belt who was walking with an obviously underage female accompanying him because we had no idea who we were dealing with and we had to be sure he was not schtupping an underage girl. Obviously, we were surprised to find out the girl was his daughter, our bad."


    More evidence that performing a perfectly legal act is somehow indicative of performing an illegal one, I guess.

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    you should see the posts at defensivecarry.com

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    rmodel65 wrote:
    you should see the posts at defensivecarry.com
    You were expecting?!?



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    more like GPDO and PAFOA :P

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    rmodel65 wrote:
    you should see the posts at defensivecarry.com
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-incident.html

    I just finished all 23 pages. A few observations of the conversation:
    • Use of ad hominem arguments.
    • Misdirection (constantly arguing that parking lots are not public, that RAS is not necessary for a "field investigation", or that concealed carry requires display of ID even though the situation at hand is OPEN CARRY especially when the only charges are for Obstruction of Justic).
    • Belief that states should legislate a requirement to carry, and display identification papers upon demand (because you shouldn't have anything to hide).
    Thank goodness for Al Lowe's level headed responses to the troublemaker's over there, and rmodel's continuing resistance to their methods.

    ETA: Grammar

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    The level of ignorance of basic law and the constitution (2nd & 4th amendments) over there is amazingly sad.

    One fool actually said there is a Federal Law that you must present ID on the demand of any law enforcement officer.


    These guys are supposed to be on our side ?
    Sounds like a Handgun control INC ladies luncheon over on that board.

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    I keep replying :P doesnt do any good maybe ill just post once they have been disproved :celebrate

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    I just read the whole thread. First off - good luck to your brother.

    Secondly - good luck with that forum. The Reagan quote: "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so." comes to mind.

    The citations and explanations of RAS, Terry, Constitutional protections, incorporation, etc. were consistently met with "yeah but we said our opinion a lot of times so it must be correct".


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    Jim675 wrote:
    The citations and explanations of RAS, Terry, Constitutional protections, incorporation, etc. were consistently met with "yeah but we said our opinion a lot of times so it must be correct".
    Exactly.

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    OK, I just read the DefensiveCarry.com posts. I'm amazed at those posters who think you have an obligation to give up your 4th, 5th, and 14th Amendment rights so that you don't make waves.

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    no carry permit ? wrote:
    These guys are supposed to be on our side ?
    Sounds like a Handgun control INC ladies luncheon over on that board.
    The most vocal opponent over there actually owns a gun store. Suprise, surprise, but he doesn't allow customers to open carry in his store either as he feels they are incompetent until he has personally judged them otherwise.

    Biased much?

    The thread is below. Unfortunately I courteously responded to his ad hominem attacks (apparently he uses them in all his threads), which brought the discussion to a halt:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-gun-shop.html

    Edit: Fixed link


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    I'll summarize the prevailing sentiment at defensivecarry.com, just so no one else has to wade through all 23 (so far) pages:

    "Dammit Rosa, just sit in the back of the bus! You're stirring up trouble! You're gonna ruin it for the rest of us!"


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    lol pretty much :P

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    diesel556 wrote:
    no carry permit ? wrote:
    These guys are supposed to be on our side ?
    Sounds like a Handgun control INC ladies luncheon over on that board.
    The most vocal opponent over there actually owns a gun store. Suprise Suprise Suprise.

    Biased much?

    The thread is below. Unfortunately hominemhominem responded to hominemhominem attacks (apparently he uses them in all his threads), which brought the discussion to a halt:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-gun-shop.html

    Edit: Fixed link
    He owns a gun store ? LOL, totally amazing ! Although I have met more than a few anti-open carry & even a few anti-concealed weapon permit types, that own or work in gun stores. The ex-law enforcement types that retire and open gun shops are the worst (from my experience) . They tend to make better tyrants then enterperneurs , and often end up selling or closing the business (GEE I wonder why ).

    A gun store owner that supports some gun control measures really isn't that uncommon. The gun store owners that are "pro -police" to the point of anti-US constition are even more common.You just won't catch me dealing with them.

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    Lol, can you add some spaces in between the "surprisesurprise" so that the text will wrap properly?

    And +1 to your assessment. I'm starting to learn that just because ones business depends on guns and gun owners, doesn't mean that such a person necessarily likes or even respects either the guns or their owners.

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    So what has become of this case? Were charges dropped? Has the individual who was arrested decided to file suit yet?

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    We havent heard, when he was bonded out they said he would be mailed the info about the court day etc.

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    no carry permit ? wrote:
    diesel556 wrote:
    no carry permit ? wrote:
    These guys are supposed to be on our side ?
    Sounds like a Handgun control INC ladies luncheon over on that board.
    The most vocal opponent over there actually owns a gun store. SupriseSuprise, surprise, but he doesn't allUnfortunatelyhominemhominemin his store ehominemhominemels they are incompetent until he has personally judged them otherwise.

    Biased much?

    The thread is below. Unfortunatelyhominemhominem responded to hominemhominem attacks (apparently he uses them in all his threads), which brought the discussion to a halt:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-gun-shop.html

    Edit: Fixed link
    them.
    Please fix your "surprisesurprise" in the quoted text......
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Case was dismissed today...nearly 4 years after the arrest

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmodel65 View Post
    Case was dismissed today...nearly 4 years after the arrest

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    This one still totally amazes me (I am only a short distance from this area). Here is an example of a proper police response......(MWAG call received and when you arrive on scene you make contact with the property owner or in this instance, manager)......Officer to Manager, "I do see he is carrying a firearm openly, that is not a crime. As the individual delegated authority by the property owner, you do have the right to ask him to leave." Now 2 scenarios can happen.....
    Scenario #1...
    Manager to Officer, "Yes, I want him to leave, can you get him out of here ?" At this point the Officer approaches the man and states, "Sir, I was called to this location because Mr. X saw you openly carrying a firearm. As the Manager of this establishment, he has been delegated the authority to ask you to leave this establishment. He has informed me he would like you to leave." The man then leaves. If he refuses to leave there are issues, but that would be an exception to the rule and I have NEVER had that happen. If the man wants to talk to the manager, that is fine (as long as the manager wishes to speak to him).
    Scenario #2.....
    Manager to Officer, "I didn't know that was legal. If it isn't against the law I have no problem with it." Officer leaves.
    Either way, no crime has been committed. No identification is needed. No DL is required because the man is not driving. No permit is needed, the Officer has no reason to believe there has been a crime committed. No report is required to be generated. It amazes me that some LEO's are not comfortable with citizens carrying firearms (regardless of their preferred method of carry).

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    Regular Member AAriondo's Avatar
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    I dont know, maybe its just me but if I get stopped and an Officer askes me If I have an ID or a Permit to carry I would gladly show it to him. I am proud to have it. What have I got to hide?
    Most stops would go a lot smoother if people would just cooperate. I dont feel I am giving up my rights for doing it either.
    Carrying isn't suppossed to feel comfortable...Its supposed to feel safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAriondo View Post
    I dont know, maybe its just me but if I get stopped and an Officer askes me If I have an ID or a Permit to carry I would gladly show it to him. I am proud to have it. What have I got to hide?
    Most stops would go a lot smoother if people would just cooperate. I dont feel I am giving up my rights for doing it either.
    Lots of things go smoother if people cooperate, it still does not change the outcome. Just ask the people who lost ancestors in the Holocaust.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAriondo View Post
    I dont know, maybe its just me but if I get stopped and an Officer askes me If I have an ID or a Permit to carry I would gladly show it to him. I am proud to have it. What have I got to hide?
    Most stops would go a lot smoother if people would just cooperate. I dont feel I am giving up my rights for doing it either.
    The more you start to read, the more you start to realize exactly why so many of us do not give up our ID's. Stick around and read a lot more.

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