KBCraig
Regular Member
:banana::monkey:banana::monkey:banana::monkey:banana:
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Where is the reasonable suspicion??
- Thread starter rmodel65
- Start date
:banana::monkey:banana::monkey:banana::monkey:banana:
BRuley
Regular Member
This one still totally amazes me (I am only a short distance from this area). Here is an example of a proper police response......(MWAG call received and when you arrive on scene you make contact with the property owner or in this instance, manager)......Officer to Manager, "I do see he is carrying a firearm openly, that is not a crime. As the individual delegated authority by the property owner, you do have the right to ask him to leave." Now 2 scenarios can happen.....
Scenario #1...
Manager to Officer, "Yes, I want him to leave, can you get him out of here ?" At this point the Officer approaches the man and states, "Sir, I was called to this location because Mr. X saw you openly carrying a firearm. As the Manager of this establishment, he has been delegated the authority to ask you to leave this establishment. He has informed me he would like you to leave." The man then leaves. If he refuses to leave there are issues, but that would be an exception to the rule and I have NEVER had that happen. If the man wants to talk to the manager, that is fine (as long as the manager wishes to speak to him).
Scenario #2.....
Manager to Officer, "I didn't know that was legal. If it isn't against the law I have no problem with it." Officer leaves.
Either way, no crime has been committed. No identification is needed. No DL is required because the man is not driving. No permit is needed, the Officer has no reason to believe there has been a crime committed. No report is required to be generated. It amazes me that some LEO's are not comfortable with citizens carrying firearms (regardless of their preferred method of carry).
Scenario #1...
Manager to Officer, "Yes, I want him to leave, can you get him out of here ?" At this point the Officer approaches the man and states, "Sir, I was called to this location because Mr. X saw you openly carrying a firearm. As the Manager of this establishment, he has been delegated the authority to ask you to leave this establishment. He has informed me he would like you to leave." The man then leaves. If he refuses to leave there are issues, but that would be an exception to the rule and I have NEVER had that happen. If the man wants to talk to the manager, that is fine (as long as the manager wishes to speak to him).
Scenario #2.....
Manager to Officer, "I didn't know that was legal. If it isn't against the law I have no problem with it." Officer leaves.
Either way, no crime has been committed. No identification is needed. No DL is required because the man is not driving. No permit is needed, the Officer has no reason to believe there has been a crime committed. No report is required to be generated. It amazes me that some LEO's are not comfortable with citizens carrying firearms (regardless of their preferred method of carry).
AAriondo
Regular Member
I dont know, maybe its just me but if I get stopped and an Officer askes me If I have an ID or a Permit to carry I would gladly show it to him. I am proud to have it. What have I got to hide?
Most stops would go a lot smoother if people would just cooperate. I dont feel I am giving up my rights for doing it either.
Most stops would go a lot smoother if people would just cooperate. I dont feel I am giving up my rights for doing it either.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Lots of things go smoother if people cooperate, it still does not change the outcome. Just ask the people who lost ancestors in the Holocaust.
PistolPackingMomma
Regular Member
The more you start to read, the more you start to realize exactly why so many of us do not give up our ID's. Stick around and read a lot more.
Fallschirjmäger
Active member
Okay, let's say you voluntarily cooperate with Officer Friendly just to make the encounter go faster....
"Hello, Citizen, I see you are carrying a firearm; may I see your license and identification?"
"Sure Officer, here they are."
"I see your license says you live in Main City, is that still your current address?"
"Yes, as you can see everything is in order. Am I being detained or may I go now?"
"I have a few more questions for you, is your birthdate 01/01/68?"
"Yes, just as it says on the permit. I'm really running a bit behind now, can I please be on my way?"
"You can leave whenever you want but I'm not done just yet, I need to call your identification in to the department to see if you're a wanted felon who can't possess a firearm."
"Look, we've been out in the hot sun for 15 minutes already. I want to go. Now."
"I'd appreciate it if you just stand right there and don't make any furtive movements Citizen, this won't take long and then you can leave."
"Are you detaining me?"
"What? Not at all, you're free to leave anytime you want. I'll be done with your license and permit in a few minutes, just relax, Citizen."
Versus
"Hello, Citizen, I see you are carrying a firearm; may I see your license and identification?"
"No. There is no controlling statutory authority to demand either. Am I being detained?"
"No, but I still have a few questio----- hey, where are ya going??"
"Bye, Officer, if you're not detaining me then I have places to go and things to do."
When your papers are being held hostage, are you really free to leave a "voluntary encounter."
"Hello, Citizen, I see you are carrying a firearm; may I see your license and identification?"
"Sure Officer, here they are."
"I see your license says you live in Main City, is that still your current address?"
"Yes, as you can see everything is in order. Am I being detained or may I go now?"
"I have a few more questions for you, is your birthdate 01/01/68?"
"Yes, just as it says on the permit. I'm really running a bit behind now, can I please be on my way?"
"You can leave whenever you want but I'm not done just yet, I need to call your identification in to the department to see if you're a wanted felon who can't possess a firearm."
"Look, we've been out in the hot sun for 15 minutes already. I want to go. Now."
"I'd appreciate it if you just stand right there and don't make any furtive movements Citizen, this won't take long and then you can leave."
"Are you detaining me?"
"What? Not at all, you're free to leave anytime you want. I'll be done with your license and permit in a few minutes, just relax, Citizen."
Versus
"Hello, Citizen, I see you are carrying a firearm; may I see your license and identification?"
"No. There is no controlling statutory authority to demand either. Am I being detained?"
"No, but I still have a few questio----- hey, where are ya going??"
"Bye, Officer, if you're not detaining me then I have places to go and things to do."
When your papers are being held hostage, are you really free to leave a "voluntary encounter."
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BRuley
Regular Member
I guess my thing is, if you want to give your info, feel free. They should not be asking for it though. By asking for it, they are overstepping their authority. I work in law enforcement and actually give a class on this subject now. The unfortunate part is that there will always be people (in law enforcement and citizens) who believe the laws do not apply to them. There are citizens out there who will call 911 when they see people carrying openly because they don't know any better, get scared, etc etc.......The thing that we should be able to rely on is our law enforcement being aware and knowledgeable of the laws. Notice I said "should"..........In a perfect world, when a citizen calls 911 to report an individual walking around a store carrying a firearm openly, the 911 dispatcher would be able to reply, "Well, that isn't a crime" and not even dispatch an officer to the call, we all know that this isn't a perfect world though.
MKEgal
Regular Member
AAriondo said:
What she said. This has been brought up MANY times, & there's even a whole thread just on this issue.PistolPackingMomma said:
Aside from what Falls said, which you may think is far out but isn't,
you have to realize that you're looking at the problem backwards.
Unless the police have reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) that I am committing, have committed, or am about to commit a crime they have no legal justification to bother me.
(At least, none to force me to stop going about my day & wait for them to figure out that I'm not a criminal. Just like any other person, an officer is free to talk to me, & I'm free to walk away.)
Unless you've called them for help, they're not there to help you. They're there to find evidence of some infraction so they can generate revenue for the [city / county / state].
As for "what have I got to hide", where do you draw the line?
When an officer comes to your door & demands to search your house, will you let him or will you ask to see his warrant or hear his RAS? If you have nothing to hide, why not let him in to look around?
When you're stopped for a traffic infraction, do you let them search your car just because they want to?
When you're working in the yard, do you let the cop who drives by search you just because s/he wants to?
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