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Thread: Robber, victim dead after gas station shootout.

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    A few more details pouring in.



    http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=9552948

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    There are no guarantees that we will prevail in such a situation, of course, but I always wonder if someone like this took the time to train with his gun, learn self defense tactics, and developed a fighting mindset - or if he might have been one of those who thought buying a gun was all he needed to do.

    You will fight as you train. Don't neglect both practical and tactical exercises, dry fire and on the range.

    It might make all the difference.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    At least the man had a fighting chance and there's one less bad guy walking the streets.


    My condolences to his friends and family



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    I heard it went down really quick.(I work with the victim's cousin).From what I understand,all he had was a gun.Never took any kind of tactical,or self defense training.

    He hung on for a little while before passing away when he arrived at the hospital.The robber,ran into the field behind the store where he was found dead.

    Makes you realize how quick your,(& everyone around you)life can change........

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    Hmm... Makes me wonder what to do in the same situation. Given the BG already has drawn on you and your weapon is not handy, do you draw and hope you can beat him to the punch or give him your money and hope he moves on?

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Hmm... Makes me wonder what to do in the same situation. Given the BG already has drawn on you and your weapon is not handy, do you draw and hope you can beat him to the punch or give him your money and hope he moves on?
    Only the person in that situation can make that decision, of course. As someone who has studied self defense, however, I know that there are many things one can do long before they get to that point. If we are AWARE of our surroundings, who is near us, and what they are doing, it is much less likely someone could get this close before we were alert to the danger.

    I suspect, since he had no training, he was oblivious to his surroundings until the last second. Then it is often too late, yet people continue to fight and prevail at times even then.

    Personally, I have already determined never to give up. If someone has a gun in my face, there is little assurance they would be happy to take the wallet and move on. If you can identify them, you are a danger to them. I'll take my chances fighting them, and do my darndest never to let them get that close to start with.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    The victim, my condolences to his family, is a hero. He had the balls to go for it, and not cave in, just because someone said so. I hope I could be so brave.

    Dale

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    eacurtis wrote:
    Hmm... Makes me wonder what to do in the same situation. Given the BG already has drawn on you and your weapon is not handy, do you draw and hope you can beat him to the punch or give him your money and hope he moves on?
    +1

    Winning is surviving, not stopping a robbery. It's up to the individual to determine if the threat is gone after the BG takes your wallet, but if so you should live to fight another day.

    I also don't buy that "once they see your face they'll kill you" statement as a universal maxim, at least not when it comes to plain robbery. IMHO most of these BGs are just looking to overwhelm easy targets for quick cash. They bring a gun, figure that you don't have one, then take the money and run. If you see their face, so what? Chances are the cops will never locate them on your account.

    However, if you pull a gun on them after you've been drawn on, that creates an interesting situation. The BG will either be scared or angry. Most likely scared. If he's angry he'll shoot and it's the OK Corral. If he's scared, he may run or still shoot. Your behavior as a victim is much less predictable than an LEO coming on scene. Most BGs have interacted with LEOs before, and there is more of a predicable nature to the encounter. Ask BGs who they'd rather be facing with a gun and the answer is almost always the LEO rather than the victim. So the BG may still shoot simply because he is scared into doing so. Either way, it's probably not a good idea to draw on someone in that situation unless you are truly convinced that your very life or the life of someone else depends on it.

    Just my 2 cents.

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    Quite alot to think about. Thanks.

    Dale

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    Kinda hard to think about, give him the money and hope he doesn't shoot you anyhow. Then when he turns his back to leave you get your weapon and tell him put it down now or I shoot? hmmmm backshooting's never been my style BUT neither has submitting to robbery. Maybe you cold convince him to turn around,,or maybe the dumbass would do it anyway.
    My condolences again to the man's family, hope they know he's a hero. And if I could, I'd piss on the robbers grave.
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    I doubt I'd confront the guy after he turned to leave. Doing so WILL result in someone dying (me or him). Ohio has a duty to retreat (except in your own vehicle and house) and you cannot use deadly force to protect property. Re-engaging the guy after he turned would probablly be viewed as protecting property.

    Now, after he turned around to leave I would draw and seek shelter. If he turns around again and I felt threatened, I would engage.

    I guess what I've drilled in my head the last year or so would be only to engage if I felt immedate danger to myself, a loved one, or someone who is unable to protect themselves. If they want to run off with the $50 or $100 that might be in my wallet, so be it. I take good notes (voice recorder is always running) and turn the data over to police.

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    Regular Member MetalChris's Avatar
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    eacurtis wrote:
    I doubt I'd confront the guy after he turned to leave. Doing so WILL result in someone dying (me or him). Ohio has a duty to retreat (except in your own vehicle and house) and you cannot use deadly force to protect property. Re-engaging the guy after he turned would probablly be viewed as protecting property.

    Now, after he turned around to leave I would draw and seek shelter. If he turns around again and I felt threatened, I would engage.

    I guess what I've drilled in my head the last year or so would be only to engage if I felt immedate danger to myself, a loved one, or someone who is unable to protect themselves. If they want to run off with the $50 or $100 that might be in my wallet, so be it. I take good notes (voice recorder is always running) and turn the data over to police.
    I think you're completely correct on all counts. However, I think it's bullcrap that we are required by law to allow someone to continue to commit armed robbery.

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    On the plus side, the guy who shot the punk doesn't have to worry about getting sued for wrongful death or being the target of a zealous prosecutor.

    Being dead may be game over, but sometimes I wonder if the potential legal troubles make death the easy way out.

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    MetalChris wrote:
    eacurtis wrote:
    I doubt I'd confront the guy after he turned to leave. Doing so WILL result in someone dying (me or him). Ohio has a duty to retreat (except in your own vehicle and house) and you cannot use deadly force to protect property. Re-engaging the guy after he turned would probablly be viewed as protecting property.

    Now, after he turned around to leave I would draw and seek shelter. If he turns around again and I felt threatened, I would engage.

    I guess what I've drilled in my head the last year or so would be only to engage if I felt immedate danger to myself, a loved one, or someone who is unable to protect themselves. If they want to run off with the $50 or $100 that might be in my wallet, so be it. I take good notes (voice recorder is always running) and turn the data over to police.
    I think you're completely correct on all counts. However, I think it's bullcrap that we are required by law to allow someone to continue to commit armed robbery.
    Once the imminent threat of serious bodily harm has passed, I would think you are in the territory of arresting someone who has committed a felony. In our great state of Washington you are SOL if you use lethal force during such an arrest, however I believe there are some states like Texas where such force is justified.

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinio...gilanted.shtml

    "A citizen may employ force -- but not lethal force -- when "arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody.""

    So if the alleged criminal has a gun, I guess you are unable to respond in kind except in self defense.

    ETA: Of course Dave Workman has already known this for a long time, as you can see in the above referenced article :P

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    Kansas "Castle Doctrine" allows for protection of self and property. And I believe as was stated that in the case of halt or I'll fire, that is what would be called a "Citizens arrest".
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member MetalChris's Avatar
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    diesel556 wrote
    Once the imminent threat of serious bodily harm has passed, I would think you are in the territory of arresting someone who has committed a felony. In our great state of Washington you are SOL if you use lethal force during such an arrest, however I believe there are some states like Texas where such force is justified.

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinio...gilanted.shtml

    "A citizen may employ force -- but not lethal force -- when "arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody.""

    So if the alleged criminal has a gun, I guess you are unable to respond in kind except in self defense.

    ETA: Of course Dave Workman has already known this for a long time, as you can see in the above referenced article :P
    Let's say that you do attempt a citizens arrest after the perp has obtained your wallet and has turned to leave. Hypothetically, if he were to not follow your orders and drop his weapon, or if he turned towards you and leveled his weapon in your face...boom you're justified in using deadly force.

    Now here in the "great" state of Ohio you aren't allowed to make a citizens arrest, so if you tried I'm sure you'd get hung out to dry by some POS DA.

    Man I need to move to TX.

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    I am not such a quick draw that if someone has a gun pointed at me I can beat them to the shot, that being said. I have always been told you never hand money, wallett, car keys ect.to a robber youtossthemso they have to pick them upprovideing yourself with a few seconds to run away draw your weapon ect.

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