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Define Personal Space

JoeSparky

Centurion
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Jun 20, 2008
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3,621
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Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
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JBURGII wrote:
There were multiple people in the hallway leaving turning to her left pretty much the only option. Two people cannot pass in this part of the house without turning 90 deg to each other.Not to mention Unhappy (as I call him) was determined to make the encounter for his benefit, he had been 'fishing' for two days for any excuse or reason to 'get us'. He had called the Fire Dept. to force an inspection of our building, getting beligerint with the Chief over nithling details which were not applicable yet insisting beyond reason that the Chief write them in his report.. come to find out the LEOs were already aware of the Chiefs encounter before the rest of the story occured.

I was informed to call LE to take care of the problem.. yet to get away to make the call, have to pass Unhappy and cause the 'touching' in question.. here lies my catch 22.. I figured this might be an interesting scenario to discuss as I know most of us are not lawyers and I am not looking for legal advice, just opinions on what any of us in similar situations can do to take care of a problem without causing ourselves undue legal hassle..

James

I don't know about Oregon but in Utah it is a crime to INTEREFERE with anyone attempting to make an emergency call.... depending on the circumstances I think it can go all the way up to KIDNAPING!

JoeSparky
 

Task Force 16

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Lobelville, Tennessee, USA
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So if you are backed into a corner, no witnesses, verbal assault, and the offender does cross into intimidation according to statute, victim tries to leave and touches offender.. LEO says victim now becomes the offender..
"No witnesses" turns this scenario into one persons word against anothers. In this event you could knee the obstructing persons balls up into his throat, walk away, and then deny that you were even there....if there are no witnesses, of course.
 

cccook

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
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429
Location
DFW, Texas, USA
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Carnivore wrote:
I'd be prepared for retaliation!!
Sound advice. Clearly Unhappy does not respect accepted boundaries, and drunks are capable of incredibly dangerous behavior. That coupled withhis implied threat of theuse of deadly force would have me in an advanced state of readiness for a potential future personal encounter with him. Good luck...stay safe.
 

JBURGII

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cccook wrote:
Carnivore wrote:
I'd be prepared for retaliation!!
Sound advice. Clearly Unhappy does not respect accepted boundaries, and drunks are capable of incredibly dangerous behavior. That coupled withhis implied threat of theuse of deadly force would have me in an advanced state of readiness for a potential future personal encounter with him. Good luck...stay safe.
This is something that does concern me and I am watching very carefully. Thankfully we have another week and a half of lockup to plan for him. One thing I might not have made clear on the events that occured.. during the entire thing Unhappy was very intoxicated and very loud / almost incomprehensible at times.. he went into the PD station at least 5 different times during the day and it never occured to LE to charge him with DC or public intox?? I should have jumped on that one myself I know but if I were to walk into PD drunk and screaming, I am pretty sure I would be staying there for a while.. hmmm

James
 

JBURGII

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Hawkflyer wrote:
Find out of unhappy is related to anyone on the force.

No accusing, just saying.

Regards
Not sure on that.. he works as a wildland firefighter on contract.. he does like to spout off that he 'knows' people.. I just love people who are well connected.. :?
 

nitrovic

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Citizen wrote:
I am not a lawyer.

It looks to me like he was the one who "came out" and initiated the confrontation.

Did she have another avenue to leave?  For example, to walk the opposite direction towards an exit?

It seems silly to require a person to stand and take what he was dishing out.

There isn't a self-defense expert in the world who would tell you to let someone that hostile remain that close to you.  Pre-assault indicators/behavior and all that.

I agree.

To the OP, I can't see how simply bumping shoulders with somebody who is intentionally in your way is "harassment" or any other crime. I doubt a jury or a judge would convict. Unless there is more to this story, I'm with you on this one. Then again, I don't know Oregon law. But I doubt you must just sit and wait for the assault to occur before defending yourself.
 

JBURGII

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nitrovic wrote:
Citizen wrote:
I am nota lawyer.

It looks to me like he was the one who "came out" and initiated the confrontation.

Did she have another avenue to leave? For example, to walk the opposite direction towards an exit?

It seems silly to require a person to stand and take what he was dishing out.

There isn't a self-defense expert in the world who would tell you to let someone that hostile remain that close to you. Pre-assault indicators/behavior and all that.

I agree.

To the OP, I can't see how simply bumping shoulders with somebody who is intentionally in your way is "harassment" or any other crime. I doubt a jury or a judge would convict. Unless there is more to this story, I'm with you on this one. Then again, I don't know Oregon law. But I doubt you must just sit and wait for the assault to occur before defending yourself.

Letter of the statute makes any unwanted contact 'harassment' unfortunately and with LE endorsing that, you can't avoid a confrontation if it means touching the instigator in any way. Following this line of thought, you can only do something if the other person instigates actual violence.. then you can defend yourself.

My question to LE was how can I do my job managing a complex if I can be charged with harassment or worse if in the course of things I 'touch' someone..

James
 

nitrovic

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, ,
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JBURGII wrote:
nitrovic wrote:
Citizen wrote:
I am not a lawyer.

It looks to me like he was the one who "came out" and initiated the confrontation.

Did she have another avenue to leave?  For example, to walk the opposite direction towards an exit?

It seems silly to require a person to stand and take what he was dishing out.

There isn't a self-defense expert in the world who would tell you to let someone that hostile remain that close to you.  Pre-assault indicators/behavior and all that.

I agree.

To the OP, I can't see how simply bumping shoulders with somebody who is intentionally in your way is "harassment" or any other crime. I doubt a jury or a judge would convict. Unless there is more to this story, I'm with you on this one. Then again, I don't know Oregon law. But I doubt you must just sit and wait for the assault to occur before defending yourself.

Letter of the statute makes any unwanted contact 'harassment' unfortunately and with LE endorsing that, you can't avoid a confrontation if it means touching the instigator in any way. Following this line of thought, you can only do something if the other person instigates actual violence.. then you can defend yourself.

My question to LE was how can I do my job managing a complex if I can be charged with harassment or worse if in the course of things I 'touch' someone..

James

Good point.
 

Carnivore

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Aug 29, 2008
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970
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ParkHills, Missouri, USA
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JBURGII wrote:
cccook wrote:
Carnivore wrote:
I'd be prepared for retaliation!!
Sound advice. Clearly Unhappy does not respect accepted boundaries, and drunks are capable of incredibly dangerous behavior. That coupled withhis implied threat of theuse of deadly force would have me in an advanced state of readiness for a potential future personal encounter with him. Good luck...stay safe.
This is something that does concern me and I am watching very carefully. Thankfully we have another week and a half of lockup to plan for him. One thing I might not have made clear on the events that occured.. during the entire thing Unhappy was very intoxicated and very loud / almost incomprehensible at times.. he went into the PD station at least 5 different times during the day and it never occured to LE to charge him with DC or public intox?? I should have jumped on that one myself I know but if I were to walk into PD drunk and screaming, I am pretty sure I would be staying there for a while.. hmmm

James


That would be another fine line to draw for unhappy, post a sign that states No loud drunken obnoxious behavior on the premises, or eviction will surely follow prosecution to the fullest extent of the law..
 

Orygunner

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Jun 5, 2008
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737
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Springfield, Oregon, USA
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JBURGII wrote:
This is something that does concern me and I am watching very carefully. Thankfully we have another week and a half of lockup to plan for him.
...SNIP...
Oh, he must not be housed in Lane County Jail then?

...Orygunner...

(For any Non-Locals to Lane County where JBURGII and I live, Lane County Jail is infamous for having too few beds for the amount of bad guys that pass through - Because of their "Matrix" system, only the worst offenders get to spend more than a few hours in there. The local news did a story on it using one of their reporters who pretended to be a "Criminal" charged with a DUII, Assault, and resisting arrest... She was back out on the street in 6 hours.)
 

JBURGII

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Orygunner wrote:
JBURGII wrote:
This is something that does concern me and I am watching very carefully. Thankfully we have another week and a half of lockup to plan for him.
...SNIP...
Oh, he must not be housed in Lane County Jail then?

...Orygunner...

(For any Non-Locals to Lane County where JBURGII and I live, Lane County Jail is infamous for having too few beds for the amount of bad guys that pass through - Because of their "Matrix" system, only the worst offenders get to spend more than a few hours in there. The local news did a story on it using one of their reporters who pretended to be a "Criminal" charged with a DUII, Assault, and resisting arrest... She was back out on the street in 6 hours.)

Unhappy is spending a few days in Junction Citys 4bd/2cell motel.. and the judge won't be back till after the holidays.. his g/f has been on the phone with Peter DeFazio and the mayor and whoever else she thought might be able to get him out for Christmas.. cuz he's 'sorry'.. uh - huh..

James
 

Carnivore

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970
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ParkHills, Missouri, USA
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:lol::celebratewho is he saying sorry to? thelaw foraccumulating outstanding warrants?, or your GF forfollowing through with trumped up charges? I'd let him know that if he doesn't drop the charges against your GF that his life is only going to get worse, because you've only tapped into one of theVooDoo dolls so far, but there's more of em lined up and waiting..;)
 

JBURGII

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diesel556 wrote:
Have you started carrying an audio recorder around yet, or are you going to wait until he gets out?

Very good question.. I found one yesterday to fit my budget.. I hate that I haven't picked one up sooner as I have been OC for a while now.. I do forsee more 'action' in the near future and with the frequency of contact I now have with managers, LEO and angry tenants.. I cannot do without an audio recorder any longer..

Apparently his apologies have been to his g/f for his behavior, its classic response to getting in trouble for his outburst. I have seen this pattern on many occasions with abusive personalities. They explode and then apologize, way too often the victims fall for it.. I'm trying not to let this happen to the women in my building.

James
 

wrightme

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Oct 19, 2008
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5,574
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Fallon, Nevada, USA
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Reading this makes it clear that Unhappy did the harassment. Get a lawyer, file charges if possible, BEFORE he gets out of jail.

It is quite possible that by cornering her, he "detained" her. She was possibly not free to leave without pressing past him, causing the charge he initiated. I think this is likely a point of law that a lawyer could use to counter the point of the LE.



IANAL
 

Orygunner

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Springfield, Oregon, USA
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diesel556 wrote:
Have you started carrying an audio recorder around yet, or are you going to wait until he gets out?

JBurgII, Some of the cheapie MP3 Players have a built in voice recorder. Not sure how well they work, but I saw a 1GB one for about 15 bucks with that feature.

...Orygunner...
 

Tomahawk

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Oct 1, 2006
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4 hours south of HankT, ,
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Orygunner wrote:
diesel556 wrote:
Have you started carrying an audio recorder around yet, or are you going to wait until he gets out?

JBurgII, Some of the cheapie MP3 Players have a built in voice recorder. Not sure how well they work, but I saw a 1GB one for about 15 bucks with that feature.

...Orygunner...
The problem with those is that they take too long to turn on and start recording. A dedicated recorder can be set up so it comes on with one touch, but doesn't waste betteries when it's not being used.
 

Carnivore

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Actually you don't have to be sneaky about it at all,

Just one time during a conversation, state his name, and say _____,unhappy if you have something to say, say it in the microphone, from then on, just hit record when you think he's gonna want to verbalize his intelligence, and you'll have him in living color, if he says he wasn't aware that he was being recorded, you can say B.S., play back to the beginning and listen to the very first sentenance on the tape, it should sound something like _____Unhappy if you have anything to say, say it into the microphone..
 
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