Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 52

Thread: Grand Rapids Community College student says guns should be allowed on campus

  1. #1
    Regular Member LaVere's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The remains of Flint, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    264

    Post imported post

    [img]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Gordon/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg[/img]http://www.mlive.com/grpress/news/in..._an_armed.html


    Grand Rapids Community College student says guns should be allowed on campus by Nardy Baeza Bickel | The Grand Rapids Press Friday December 19, 2008, 11:00 AM Press Photo/Hollyn JohnsonGrand Rapids Community College student Josh Eberly demonstrates how he would carry his concealed weapon on campus. GRAND RAPIDS -- An armed man walks around a college campus.
    A college student -- legally carrying a concealed weapon -- confronts him, restraining the would-be shooter until police arrive.
    That's the scenario Grand Rapids Community College student Josh Eberly, 25, imagines possible if licensed students were allowed to carry their concealed weapons on campus.
    Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, a nationwide group formed the day after the 2007 Virginia Tech shooting that left 33 people dead.
    POLL Should carrying concealed weapons be legal on college campuses?
    • Yes, it would makes campuses safer. No, it would endanger the community.
    Created on Dec 18, 2008
    View Results
    With 35,000 members throughout the country and representatives at 12 colleges and universities in Michigan, the group seeks to change legislation to get rid of gun-free zones in colleges.
    Under the law, permit holders must be at least 21, undergo training and be without felonies or drunk-driving offenses. They can carry anywhere in the state except for gun-free zones such as schools, hospitals and bars.
    GRCC's Student Handbook also bans weapons from all college property, including parking ramps.
    College administrators said guns could end up in the wrong hands or interfere with police response in case of an emergency.
    "I'm a firm believer in Second Amendment rights in the appropriate setting, and a college campus is not an appropriate setting," said GRCC Police Chief Cindy Kennel. "I don't think campus would be safer."
    "I think it would add danger to a campus where you have a high density of people," added GRCC Vice President Patrick Cwayna. "We have a police force trained and prepared for situations like this. It would be counter-productive in every way to allow weapons on campus."
    Administrators at other area campuses aren't to keen about the idea either.
    "How do you identify who's a good guy and who's a bad guy? To add more firearms would make things more difficult," said Calvin College Safety Director Bill Corner.Agreeing was Grand Valley State University Dean of Students Bart Merkle, who said guns, high stress, alcohol consumption and students' high suicide rates are a dangerous mix.
    "I'm vehemently opposed to that. Enabling people to carry guns on college campus makes no sense at all," he said.
    GRCC criminal justice professor Gary Ebels, the adviser for Eberly's group, said he sees the group -- and the discussion it has raised on campus -- as a good teaching opportunity.
    Press Photo/Rex LarsenGrand Rapids Community College criminal justice instructer Gary Ebels feels the debate about the right of students to carry concealed weapons provides a good learning opportunity for students. Supporters printed signs that have been posted in the college "When students have a cause and are learning by dealing with administrators and politicians and defining what they're (fighting) for... I like the discussion," Ebels said.
    "(They say) we have this policy on one hand and this other one on the other hand ... which one should take precedent? ... I support them in asking the question: Let's sit down and decide what's this all about."
    Since the shooting in February at Northern Illinois University left six dead, the discussion has intensified across the country.
    Students are allowed to carry concealed weapons in Utah and Colorado, and the issue has been considered in Alabama, Louisiana, Idaho and Ohio.
    Eberly, who won't say whether he has a permit to carry, said he was initially against the idea of allowing guns on campuses. But now he thinks students with gun permits would add immediate security.
    "Why wait for the police to show up when your life is in danger?" he said.

    The use of force is a last resort. One aspect of violence is that it is unpredictable. Although your initial intention may be to use limited force, once you have engaged in violence the consequences are unpredictable. Violence always brings about unexpected results and almost always provokes retaliation.

    Dalai Lama

    ************************************************** ********************

    http://www.generalnewsgroup.com/

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    I would Love to see this move forward.

    The GRCC police chief is typical of university law enforcement. They all say this.

    I'm sorry, but if there were ever an armed assailant on the loose, and there were armed students, those students would be condition yellow, but not running around with guns in hand looking like the assailant....

    And one last thing: the writer/editor missed a typo (no you, LaVere, it's on MLive too...) (Instructer? Instructor.)

  3. #3
    Regular Member LaVere's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The remains of Flint, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    264

    Post imported post

    The use of force is a last resort. One aspect of violence is that it is unpredictable. Although your initial intention may be to use limited force, once you have engaged in violence the consequences are unpredictable. Violence always brings about unexpected results and almost always provokes retaliation.

    Dalai Lama

    ************************************************** ********************

    http://www.generalnewsgroup.com/

  4. #4
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,445

    Post imported post

    POLL





    Should carrying concealed weapons be legal on college campuses?


    • Yes, it would makes campuses safer.
      71%
    • No, it would endanger the community.
      28%

    Created on Dec 18, 2008
    Total Votes: 389

  5. #5
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    He should get a retention holster and OC.

    I mean seriously, when is a student of a publicly owned Michigan college going to take his or her school to task on OCing with a CPL? It really needs to be done. :?
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,071

    Post imported post

    [img]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg[/img]Should carrying concealed weapons be legal on college campuses?
    • Yes, it would makes campuses safer.
      74%
      No, it would endanger the community.
      25%
    Created on Dec 18, 2008 Total Votes: 433

    I added a "yes". It seems to be heading the right direction. I'd like to know where the other 1% is.


    Edit: copy and paste made the graph read poorly...
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    RTM Rockford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    316

    Post imported post

    The following is from GRCC's page of campus police policies:

    http://www.grcc.edu/ShowPage.cfm?PageID=14639#WEAPONS

    CONCEALED WEAPONS

    In the interest of public safety for its employees, students, customers, visitors and the general public, the carrying of weapons, whether open or concealed is strictly prohibited on any College property. No person whether licensed or unlicensed shall carry firearms, or other weapons on College property as defined herein except as set forth in this policy.

    Employees are strictly prohibited from carrying a firearm on College property or while in the course of their employment for the College whether they are licensed or unlicensed as provided for under the Concealed Weapons Act.

    The use of a firearm or weapon is strictly prohibited on any College property except for those areas specially set aside and supervised at range facilities or as part of the educational process conducted by the College.

    Exemptions:
    This policy does not apply to GRCC Police Officers or other law enforcement officers who are lawfully carrying weapons in the course of their duties as law enforcement officials.

    Persons who are unauthorized to carry concealed weapons, except for employees who are prohibited from carrying concealed weapons by GRCC, are subject to the limitations set forth in this policy and in accordance with the Concealed Weapons Act.

    Statutory Provisions:
    The statute permits employers to bar their employees whether licensed or unlicensed from carrying concealed weapons on employer property or in the course of their employment.

    Persons who are licensed under the state statute to carry a concealed weapon are required by law to carry his/her concealed weapons license at any time he/she is carrying a concealed weapon. A licensed person is required to show a peace officer upon request both his/her license to carry a concealed weapon and their driver's license or Michigan Personal Identification card.

    Limitations:
    State law prohibits a licensed individual from carrying a concealed weapon on the College premises under any of the following circumstances: while under the influence of alcohol or a controlled substance; or in a dormitory, classroom, day care center, sports arena or stadium, entertainment facility that has a seating capacity of 2500 or more; or a dining room bar or restaurant licensed under the Michigan Liquor Control Code. Persons who violate this provision are subject to both criminal and civil sanctions.

    Reason for Policy:
    To prohibit the possession or use of weapons or explosive devices on College property, as defined herein, for the safety of its employees, students, customers, and the general public.

    Entities Affected by This Policy:
    Staff, students, vendors, visitors to the campus and the general public.

    Definitions:
    "College property" includes but is not limited to property owned, operated, managed, licensed or leased by the college.

    "Weapons" means any type of firearm, knife, dagger, dirk, stiletto, or a double-edged non-folding stabbing instrument, brass knuckles, or any type of instrument which could be used as a weapon and any type of explosive, chemical, objects or instruments possessed for use of fighting or attacking.

    "Official Purpose" means GRCC Police Officers or other law enforcement officers from city, county, state or federal law enforcement agencies while performing duties or services for the College or in the course of their employment as law enforcement personnel.

    Violations of Policy:
    Employees or students who violate this policy may be subject to corrective action up to and including termination of employment or expulsion from the College where applicable. Additionally, violators of this policy may also be subject to civil or criminal sanctions as provided for by law. Visitors, customers or the general public, who violate its policy, will be subject to criminal sanctions and/or removal from College Property by GRCC Police Officers. Persons who are licensed to carry concealed weapons who violate the provision of this policy are subject to criminal and civil sanctions as provided by law.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    RTM Rockford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    316

    Post imported post

    I don't see where the GRCC board of directors derives any authority to restrict visitors from carryingweapons on their publicly owned campus. In their policy, they clearly cite the statutory allowance for them to restrict their employees, but they don't (and probably cannot) cite any basis for restricting either students or campus visitors.

    Does anyone here know of any legal basis supporting their policy? Please remember that both constitutional and statutory law regarding community colleges are separate from state colleges.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    Michigander wrote:
    He should get a retention holster and OC.

    I mean seriously, when is a student of a publicly owned Michigan college going to take his or her school to task on OCing with a CPL? It really needs to be done. :?
    It's usually against school policy. Break school rules and you get kicked out. I wouldn't be willing to chance my future on it.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    The school is public, and therefor owned by the government. Therefor, I do believe that state pre emption would come into play, would it not?
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    S E Michgan all mine, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    800

    Post imported post

    Most community collages do not have dormitories ,as to classrooms if not student or employee stay out of classroom also 2500 event seating . Then you would be OK .

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    Michigander wrote:
    The school is public, and therefor owned by the government. Therefor, I do believe that state pre emption would come into play, would it not?
    The school is public, but like any other school, they can instate dress codes and other rules upon their members.

    One of the terms of attending the school is that you agree to abide by their rules.

    Also, I can't find it right now, but I'm fairly certain a few universities do have exemptions given to them by the state to further restrict our rights.

    And the State prohibits firearms in classrooms and dormitories already.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
    Posts
    894

    Post imported post

    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    The school is public, and therefor owned by the government. Therefor, I do believe that state pre emption would come into play, would it not?
    The school is public, but like any other school, they can instate dress codes and other rules upon their members.

    One of the terms of attending the school is that you agree to abide by their rules.

    Also, I can't find it right now, but I'm fairly certain a few universities do have exemptions given to them by the state to further restrict our rights.

    And the State prohibits firearms in classrooms and dormitories alreaddy.
    I believe only CONCEALED handguns are prohibited if you have a CPL.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    S E Michgan all mine, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    800

    Post imported post

    community collages is not a university ! sleeping =dormitory residency most if not all community collages do not have dormitory residency ! then stay out of classrooms if NOT student or employee ! OK for OC or CC . Stay away from on campus day care and 2501 events .

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    On Another note, I found the sign he used:

    http://www.gunpundit.com/2008/concea...mpus_signs.jpg

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    RTM Rockford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    316

    Post imported post

    I was trying to find where Michigan law prohibits firearms in college classrooms.

    Can anyone cite the relevant statute(s)?

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Secretary MOC, Inc. Frankenmuth, , USA
    Posts
    894

    Post imported post

    Hcidem wrote:
    I was trying to find where Michigan law prohibits firearms in college classrooms.

    Can anyone cite the relevant statute(s)?
    For CPL:

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to
    subsection (1); violation.
    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from
    licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Southwest, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    291

    Post imported post

    "Statutory Provisions:
    The statute permits employers to bar their employees whether licensed or unlicensed from carrying concealed weapons on employer property or in the course of their employment.

    Persons who are licensed under the state statute to carry a concealed weapon are required by law to carry his/her concealed weapons license at any time he/she is carrying a concealed weapon. A licensed person is required to show a peace officer upon request both his/her license to carry a concealed weapon and their driver's license or Michigan Personal Identification card."

    1. No mention of carrying openly, only concealed.

    2. If carrying openly, you not required to show a peace officer your CPL. Without the officer having RAS or PC, you are not required to show you Michigan Driver's License or Personal Identification Card. Michigan is not a Stop and ID state.

    Carry on.



  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    jmlefler wrote:
    1. No mention of carrying openly, only concealed.
    Right - you can legally openc arry on campus in Michigan. See map tab on main page of OCDO.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    S E Michgan all mine, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    800

    Post imported post

    Mike wrote:
    jmlefler wrote:
    1. No mention of carrying openly, only concealed.
    Right - you can legally openc arry on campus in Michigan. See map tab on main page of OCDO.
    You may open and CC on community collages is not a university ! sleeping =dormitory residency most if not all community collages do not have dormitory residency ! then stay out of classrooms if NOT student or employee ! OK for OC or CC . Stay away from on campus day care and 2501 events . University are some times difference and should be investigated before testing same . IF student or employee Rules or student code of conduct Rules ! Life is tough .

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    SQLtables wrote:
    Hcidem wrote:
    I was trying to find where Michigan law prohibits firearms in college classrooms.

    Can anyone cite the relevant statute(s)?
    For CPL:

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to
    subsection (1); violation.
    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from
    licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.
    You should note this inthe comment section of the article.


  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    RTM Rockford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    316

    Post imported post

    SQLtables wrote:
    ...
    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.
    Boy! Talk about missing something in plain sight! I looked for it after this post, and it jumped right out at me.

    Thanks, SQLtables.


  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    RTM Rockford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    316

    Post imported post

    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    ...
    It's usually against school policy. Break school rules and you get kicked out. I wouldn't be willing to chance my future on it.
    This is an excellent point. The basis for restricting student from carrying firearms can only be derived from the school's authority to regulate student conduct. Typically, breaking a school's conduct policy can result in sanctions against a student.

    However, policies regulating student conduct have definite limits. Student civil rights cannot be typically infringed by school policies. For some reason, our society has grown to accept a limitation on certain of these rights - in particular the right to self-defense. How very frustrating...

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Farmington,Port Huron,Waterford MICHIGAN, , USA
    Posts
    81

    Post imported post

    It is a school rule and not LAW to have a weapon on school grounds. So you can be asked to leave property and be told you are no longer a student. As far as CCW holder it says no carry in dorms and classrooms. But lock in you car is ok as parking lots and private property fall under a different laws. <-- Michigan gun board

    I will not go into all the "what if" however there are a small number of people that can carry CC on campus.

    I have talked to Sudents for CCW on campus rep for the local Schools in this area. And at least a dozen school officals. Like Deans,Director of Student Services, PR director,President,ect.....

    And I have to say that forums like this NEED to show more support on this issue if it is going to go anywhere. Like a nice day of Empty holsters and HUGE banners. it would bring the news and force the issue.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    RTM Rockford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    316

    Post imported post

    M16a2 wrote:
    ... So you can be asked to leave property ...

    ...there are a small number of people that can carry CC on campus.

    ...
    I don't follow your reasoning on these two statements. GRCC is a publicly funded community college. Its grounds are not private property, and therefore would fall under the same regulations as other public buildings (with the exception of its classrooms; the campus has no dormitories) in regard to OC or CC by non-students.

    I admit that there are a limited reasonswhy a non-student would enter a GRCC building. This, in turn, limits the lawful purpose requirements of carrying either open or concealed on the campus. For instance, they havea bookstore and a few eateries which are open to the public as well as to students.



Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •