Grand Rapids Community College student says guns should be allowed on campus

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SQLtables wrote:

Hcidem wrote:

I was trying to find where Michigan law prohibits firearms in college classrooms.

Can anyone cite the relevant statute(s)?

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For CPL:

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to
subsection (1); violation.
Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from
licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

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You should note this inthe comment section of the article.

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SQLtables wrote:

...
(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

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Boy! Talk about missing something in plain sight! I looked for it after this post, and it jumped right out at me.

Thanks, SQLtables.

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

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It's usually against school policy. Break school rules and you get kicked out. I wouldn't be willing to chance my future on it.

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This is an excellent point. The basis for restricting student from carrying firearms can only be derived from the school's authority to regulate student conduct. Typically, breaking a school's conduct policy can result in sanctions against a student.

However, policies regulating student conduct have definite limits. Student civil rights cannot be typically infringed by school policies. For some reason, our society has grown to accept a limitation on certain of these rights - in particular the right to self-defense. How very frustrating...

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It is a school rule and not LAW to have a weapon on school grounds. So you can be asked to leave property and be told you are no longer a student. As far as CCW holder it says no carry in dorms and classrooms. But lock in you car is ok as parking lots and private property fall under a different laws. <-- Michigan gun board

I will not go into all the "what if" however there are a small number of people that can carry CC on campus.

I have talked to Sudents for CCW on campus rep for the local Schools in this area. And at least a dozen school officals. Like Deans,Director of Student Services, PR director,President,ect.....

And I have to say that forums like this NEED to show more support on this issue if it is going to go anywhere. Like a nice day of Empty holsters and HUGE banners. it would bring the news and force the issue.

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M16a2 wrote:

... So you can be asked to leave property ...

...there are a small number of people that can carry CC on campus.

...

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I don't follow your reasoning on these two statements. GRCC is a publicly funded community college. Its grounds are not private property, and therefore would fall under the same regulations as other public buildings (with the exception of its classrooms; the campus has no dormitories) in regard to OC or CC by non-students.

I admit that there are a limited reasonswhy a non-student would enter a GRCC building. This, in turn, limits the lawful purpose requirements of carrying either open or concealed on the campus. For instance, they havea bookstore and a few eateries which are open to the public as well as to students.

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Hcidem wrote:

M16a2 wrote:

... So you can be asked to leave property ...

...there are a small number of people that can carry CC on campus.

...

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I don't follow your reasoning on these two statements. GRCC is a publicly funded community college. Its grounds are not private property, and therefore would fall under the same regulations as other public buildings (with the exception of its classrooms; the campus has no dormitories) in regard to OC or CC by non-students.

I admit that there are a limited reasonswhy a non-student would enter a GRCC building. This, in turn, limits the lawful purpose requirements of carrying either open or concealed on the campus. For instance, they havea bookstore and a few eateries which are open to the public as well as to students.

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What I just want to see my tax dollar at work !

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taxwhat wrote:

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What I just want to see my tax dollar at work !

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If you are referring to the eateries available to students and the general public, they are the typical types of vendors allowed to lease campus property for the convenience of students and faculty.



By the way, there are 2 polls related to this topic which we should all hit. They are covered under this thread:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/19829.html

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YES=84% NO=15% TOTAL VOTES=751

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I would love to take my school to task regarding our weapons policy. however, I have to make absolutely certain that I have a solid rock to stand on, as I do have a wife, 3 yr old, and one due Jan 13:celebrate

if there are any lawyers here, I have a letter that I need to send to the AG, it is being "officially" passed to him by 4 legislators, and 2 personal friends. if I ever get it finished. basically attempting to get an official opinion applying the preemption law to 1) community colleges
2) state colleges
3) the constitutional 3

I'm pretty sure that community colleges will be a breeze.
however, the state colleges may be slightly harder (supervised by board of education, who have a lot of pull) and the constitutional three may actually require the legislation being amended to include them, and their challenge going all the way to the state SC.

any lawyers here that can help me??? I'd love to walk into Ferris, or GRCC next year and have the ability to effectively defend myself.

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joshuaeberly wrote:

I would love to take my school to task regarding our weapons policy. however, I have to make absolutely certain that I have a solid rock to stand on, as I do have a wife, 3 yr old, and one due Jan 13:celebrate

if there are any lawyers here, I have a letter that I need to send to the AG, it is being "officially" passed to him by 4 legislators, and 2 personal friends. if I ever get it finished. basically attempting to get an official opinion applying the preemption law to 1) community colleges
2) state colleges
3) the constitutional 3

I'm pretty sure that community colleges will be a breeze.
however, the state colleges may be slightly harder (supervised by board of education, who have a lot of pull) and the constitutional three may actually require the legislation being amended to include them, and their challenge going all the way to the state SC.

any lawyers here that can help me??? I'd love to walk into Ferris, or GRCC next year and have the ability to effectively defend myself.

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Welcome to OCDO Josh. Review this thread it contains the names of the two attorneys that may assist you. The names appear near the bottom of the first post by Venator.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html

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Not a lawyer, but I support you 100%.

The big colleges (Mich, Mich St, etc.) have state-wide elected officials on their board of regents. To me, that screams public domain, therefore bound by the laws of the state. Hopefully the State agrees.

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It was pointed-out previously in the Michigan threads that our preemption law is specifically worded to apply to local government bodies, meaning village, township, city, and county entities. I think the AG might be tempted to limit his opinion to the actual wording of the preemption law which would not support overruling college bodies.

Moreover, state colleges and universities should probably be left out of this opinion. U of M, MSU, and Wayne State U share a certain independence due to their directly-elected governing bodies. Similarly, as joshuaeberlypointed out, the other state colleges and universities are governed by a directly-elected state Board of Education; they might also be considered to have a certain level of independence.

On the other hand, Michigan Compiled Laws are full of legislative statutes which regulate all of these colleges. I believe one could argue that the only legal restriction to campus carry would be that listed for CPL holders.

Regarding authority over student conduct, one must argue that these public schools are service providers to their customer base - the students. The students, as a customer base, may be expected to adhere to generally accepted means and methods of conduct, but they must not be expected to forfeit their rights in order to attend classes.

I believe the matter is rather one of authority. Do "community" colleges have the authority to restrict firearms? I believe the answer is clearly "no," but we have to determine on what basis this rests. It could be argued to be a "local" authority overlooked by the verbage of the preemption law due to its "community" title. It could also be argued to be public land similar to municipal, county, and state parks.

In any event, I believe the campus battle for concealed carry is best fought at the community college level. The opposition cannot invoke the misleading "alcohol & guns" argument as effectively since (1) there are no dormitories on community college campuses where the argument gains traction, and (2) many community college students leave community college before attaining age 21 where the would gain legal access to CPLs and alcohol.

I expect that once the legal basis for CPL on community college campuses is established, the legal basis for OC on these campuses will be laid out as well.

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Attorney General Cox:
It is the understanding of our group, Students for Concealed Carry on Campus of Michigan, that, although it is not specifically stated in Michigan Law, the Firearms Preemption law (Act 319 of 1990, section 123.1102) should apply to Community Colleges, State Colleges and Public Universities. We believe that these institutions are property of, and subdivisions of, the state or the local government. Thereby they are governed by the same rule of law as any other municipality.
We believe that this view, regarding Community Colleges, is supported by the inclusion of school districts and Community College districts as units of local government in Act 184 of 2001 section 2.161, Act 101 of 1979 section 201.233, Act 206 of 1893 section 211.24f and Act 175 of 1927 section 769.1f .
We believe that State Colleges and Universities should be subject to state law regulating firearms as Act 431 of 1984 section 18.1115, Act 184 of 2001 section 2.161, Act 101 of 1979 section 201.233, Act 206 of 1893 section 211.24f, indicate that they are subdivisions of our State Government, as they are chartered by the State, regulated by the State, report to the State, and exercise police powers normally reserved to the State and local governments. Also, Act 175 of 1927 section 769.1f specifically states that the term State, as used in that act, includes State Universities. We cannot find, within State University charters such as, Act 120 of 1960 section 390.841 or Act 26 of 1969 section 390.391, any specific exemption, original or amended, to Act 319 of 1990.
We also maintain, that as the State Board of Education reports to the legislature regarding financial matters (Act 287 of 1964 section 388.1011), and is specifically limited in their power (Act 287 of 1964 section 388.1015) they are a unit of local government, as defined in many of the sections that we have cited, therefore, we believe that the State Board of Education is also subject to Act 319 of 1990.
We would also like to direct your attention to the State of Utah, who enacted a very similar preemption law(Utah code section 76-10-500), which was challenged in court by the University of Utah, the final appeal holding that Utah’s preemption law does apply to public universities(opinion no. 20030877)
Are we correct in our interpretation of these laws? If so, would this not make any, and all, firearms policies, ordinances, or laws created by Community Colleges, State Colleges, and Public Universities, illegal and unenforceable?

Thank you for your time
Students for Concealed Carry on Campus of Michigan.





that's what I'm sitting on right now, debating whether to split it up into 3 separate requests, or keep it whole. and gotta get the formatting doublechecked by a lawyer.

ideas??? and, if it's not apparent to anybody, this would equally apply to OC.

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joshuaeberly, I believe you have contacted certain legislators regarding your inquiry. Are you at liberty to discuss who you contacted, and what they said?

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I have not personally contacted, my contacts have contacted. and I am not at liberty to reveal the conversations at this point.

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That's understandable. It would be nice to develop a list of pro-OC legislators for future reference.

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Anyone given any thought to an OC lunch in the GRCC cafeteria?

Not saying we should do it, but it might be a good way to demonstrate that there is no need to fear armed people on campus. Not saying it's a good or bad idea, just wondering...

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ghostrider wrote:

Anyone given any thought to an OC lunch in the GRCC cafeteria?
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I've given ita little thought. It seems that Joshua already has a project underway with his SCCC campaign. These news articles hit the presses just before winter break, and the campus community has not had adequate time to digest the information they have been given. I would hate to unintentionally undermine his worthy cause before it has had a chance to develop some roots on campus.

Additionally, I think we would have to discourage any current GRCC students from participating while armed. They could certainly accompany us at an on-campus event, but should not jeopardize their student status while they are actively enrolled.

I would prefer warming up the campus by having the first event off campus, but nearby. We could hold such an event rather soon, since it would not be directed at the same on-campus issues SCCC is addressing; it would not muddy their waters, so to speak.

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I think that Ridley dude said it best in one of his videos when he said that you want to send a message of guns to criminals, but a message of compliance with the law to the government, and an expectation that they will do the same. We need to get the point across by talking, and presenting copies of laws and things like that. If you aren't threatening the government or the school, just attempting to have them fix their screwed up rules, weapons will not help you, and could even send the wrong message.

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At least the criminal justice instructor appears to have his head on straight.

Poll Results: Yes, it would makes campuses safer 86%

No, it would endanger the community 13%

Total Votes: 930