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Thread: Self defense shooting in Manassas

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    A guy I work with is a volunteer EMT. He told me last night they ran a call, off Sudley Rd(I think). A guy was walking his dog about 10:30pm. Two guys tried to rob him at knife point. He pulled out a S&W 340PD. Two shots fired, 2 head shots, 2 dead bad guys.

    I can't find any news item on this. Anyone else hear about it?

    PS: I have no reason to believe my co-worker was making it up.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Not seen or heard anything either. Seems that something this sensational would have been picked up by the press by now. We shall see I guess.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    I live in Manassas and I cannot find any reports that comport with this story. However, I have not been to the office in a few days. If I see anything I will post it.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Two head shots, two dead. That's unusual shooting I'd say. He'd have to have been spending some range time *and* have a "certain" mentality to pull that off.

    I'd like to see if this pans out as a true story.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    Two head shots, two dead. That's unusual shooting I'd say. He'd have to have been spending some range time *and* have a "certain" mentality to pull that off.

    I'd like to see if this pans out as a true story.
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    Who do you trust, the 'news' or a correspondent?

    Your search - manassas shooting two OR dead location:va - did not match any articles about Manassas, VA, USA between Dec 19, 2008 and today.

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    Campaign Veteran Nelson_Muntz's Avatar
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    If the story is true, you may not have heard about it in the media yet because they are still formulating the anti-gun spin to it.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Nelson_Muntz wrote:
    If the story is true, you may not have heard about it in the media yet because they are still formulating the anti-gun spin to it.
    Do tell. You don't think, do you?

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    Shouldn't it be in the police blotter?

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    VAopencarry wrote:
    A guy I work with is a volunteer EMT. He told me last night they ran a call, off Sudley Rd(I think). A guy was walking his dog about 10:30pm. Two guys tried to rob him at knife point. He pulled out a S&W 340PD. Two shots fired, 2 head shots, 2 dead bad guys.

    I can't find any news item on this. Anyone else hear about it?

    PS: I have no reason to believe my co-worker was making it up.
    Two shots fired and two hits to the head, two b/g deceased....

    If this story is true and the insdividual who killed them does not end being indicted on a manslaughter charge--I'll be surprised....he was intentionally trying to kill them when he opened fire--the rounds to the head is the giveaway, at least to me--maybe it was reflex-it certainly sounded like he was aiming to kill them as opposed to just stopping the attack.

    I don't see this boding well for the person who defended himself if this story is true.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    The only incidents I have been able to find is an incident in Dunfries (Manassas is mid county Dunfries is east end of county) where a guy was approached by two armed men. One of them fired a gun missing the victims. The victim gave up his valuables and the Bad guys left.

    The second was in Manassas, and again a single victims was approached by two guys with a knife. The victims was robbed and the purps got away.

    Obviously neither of these is anything like the OP. A shooting like this would make big news here, so it is unlikely that the story is being suppressed.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Shooting someone in the chest or shooting someone in the head...either way it is deadly force. If deadly force was justified, what's the difference?

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    Campaign Veteran gotm4's Avatar
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    I heard the story yesterday as well from a Manassas Park police officer. I can't find anything else out as well. I'll ask around from others I know in law enforcement.
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    suntzu wrote:
    Two shots fired and two hits to the head, two b/g deceased....

    If this story is true and the insdividual who killed them does not end being indicted on a manslaughter charge--I'll be surprised....he was intentionally trying to kill them when he opened fire--the rounds to the head is the giveaway, at least to me--maybe it was reflex-it certainly sounded like he was aiming to kill them as opposed to just stopping the attack.

    I don't see this boding well for the person who defended himself if this story is true.
    What?! What kind of logis is this? Who cares? I don't. If it's true there are just 2 less drones to help bleed the system.
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    suntzu wrote:
    Two shots fired and two hits to the head, two b/g deceased....

    If this story is true and the insdividual who killed them does not end being indicted on a manslaughter charge--I'll be surprised....he was intentionally trying to kill them when he opened fire--the rounds to the head is the giveaway, at least to me--maybe it was reflex-it certainly sounded like he was aiming to kill them as opposed to just stopping the attack.

    I don't see this boding well for the person who defended himself if this story is true.
    Any case law to back this up?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    In the CHP class I took earlier this year (before I decided not to get a Virginia CHP), it was presented that you will be in a much less tenable position for "shooting to wound" than for "shooting to stop the attacker". You need lethal or potentially lethal force do do the latter. The former will just land you in front of a jury trying to explain why you shot someone if you didn't feel your life was in danger.

    TFred


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    suntzu wrote:
    VAopencarry wrote:
    A guy I work with is a volunteer EMT. He told me last night they ran a call, off Sudley Rd(I think). A guy was walking his dog about 10:30pm. Two guys tried to rob him at knife point. He pulled out a S&W 340PD. Two shots fired, 2 head shots, 2 dead bad guys.

    I can't find any news item on this. Anyone else hear about it?

    PS: I have no reason to believe my co-worker was making it up.
    Two shots fired and two hits to the head, two b/g deceased....

    If this story is true and the insdividual who killed them does not end being indicted on* a* manslaughter charge--I'll be surprised....he was intentionally trying to kill them when he opened fire--the rounds to the head is* the giveaway, at least to me--maybe it was reflex-it certainly sounded like he was aiming to kill them as opposed to just stopping the attack.*

    I don't see this boding well for the person who defended himself if this story is true.
    This is simply not true. If the person was in fear for their life (such as being robbed at knife point) I think deadly force is authorized, I see no reason why they would be charged with manslaugher. If you are justified in using deadly force, it doesn't matter where you shoot.

    Furthermore, I can't even find the story anywhere. A double "homicide" (legal or not) would be a front page story in this area.

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    TFred wrote:
    In the CHP class I took earlier this year (before I decided not to get a Virginia CHP), it was presented that you will be in a much less tenable position for "shooting to wound" than for "shooting to stop the attacker".* You need lethal or potentially lethal force do do the latter.* The former will just land you in front of a jury trying to explain why you shot someone if you didn't feel your life was in danger.

    TFred
    I've never taken a class (in civilian, military, or LE) where it is taught to "shoot to wound". Using a firearm on another human is presumed to intend "deadly force" (which this scenario would certainly be). What course and what instructor told you the above?

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    In the CHP class I took earlier this year (before I decided not to get a Virginia CHP), it was presented that you will be in a much less tenable position for "shooting to wound" than for "shooting to stop the attacker". You need lethal or potentially lethal force do do the latter. The former will just land you in front of a jury trying to explain why you shot someone if you didn't feel your life was in danger.

    TFred
    Actually the reverse may be more likely. We do have a law on the books 18.2-51, malicious wounding.

    Under this code section shooting someone with the specific intent of wounding them could really get you in a crack. It should be noted that while there might be an exemption elsewhere in the code, there is no self defense exemption in this section itself.

    Regards
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    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Perhaps I spoke too euphamistically... the point made by the instructor was clearly that if you "shoot to wound", you will be in a heap of trouble! Apologies, I see that was a poor choice of wording on my part.

    I think the instructor was trying to be kind but clear to the guy who asked about it, who in my estimation, was one of those few folks you do occasionally encounter who should not be carrying a firearm...

    We had a simulated real-life encounter training scenario at the end of the class, sort of a Wii on steroids... this guy was dead each time. Never raised his weapon at any point in the scenario. He did get pretty good at turning around and asking "am I dead?"



    TFred


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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    In the CHP class I took earlier this year (before I decided not to get a Virginia CHP), it was presented that you will be in a much less tenable position for "shooting to wound" than for "shooting to stop the attacker".* You need lethal or potentially lethal force do do the latter.* The former will just land you in front of a jury trying to explain why you shot someone if you didn't feel your life was in danger.

    TFred
    Actually the reverse may be more likely.* We do have a law on the books 18.2-51, malicious wounding.

    Under this code section shooting someone with the specific intent of wounding them could really get you in a crack.* It should be noted that while there might be an exemption elsewhere in the code, there is no self defense exemption in this section itself.

    Regards
    There is even an "aggravated" portion of that code section that will land you in jail for more time than the manslaughter charge.

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    Our instructors told us that if we shoot to wound we will probably miss. Aiming for center mast was the best way to stop a threat.

    If the OP is true, the shototer may have aim for center mast, but the robbers ducked down and caught the rounds in the head. It's hard to hit a moving target exactly where you want to.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    More often than not an inexperienced person involved in an actual shooting incident will hit the other guys weapon. This happens because people focus their attention on the weapon and they aim where they are looking.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Campaign Veteran gotm4's Avatar
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    I agree.

    Lots of times cops shoot people in the hands because that's where the cops are looking.

    A few years ago I shot in a low light 3gun match. We had IDPA targets with different t-shirts on them and each had a face (copies of police sketches). Many looked similar to others. My enemy was a guy with glasses. I was only supposed to shoot the guy with dark hair and glasses. The shots were to be in the COM and not the head. I shot everyone in the face that had glasses......because that's where I was looking.

    We had something similar last month at the Magpul Dynamics Advanced carbine class . We were shown the bad guy, and then had to run from 100yds to them and stop behind a line which put us within 15-20yds and engage the bad guys. Out of 15 targets I had two bad guys. I didn't screw up too much this time but I did shoot one of the bad guys in the body and head.
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    gotm4 wrote:
    I agree.

    Lots of times cops shoot people in the hands because that's where the cops are looking.

    A few years ago I shot in a low light 3gun match. We had IDPA targets with different t-shirts on them and each had a face (copies of police sketches). Many looked similar to others. My enemy was a guy with glasses. I was only supposed to shoot the guy with dark hair and glasses. The shots were to be in the COM and not the head. I shot everyone in the face that had glasses......because that's where I was looking.

    We had something similar last month at the Magpul Dynamics Advanced carbine class . We were shown the bad guy, and then had to run from 100yds to them and stop behind a line which put us within 15-20yds and engage the bad guys. Out of 15 targets I had two bad guys. I didn't screw up too much this time but I did shoot one of the bad guys in the body and head.
    If anyone has to draw and shoot at a criminal that is aiming a gun at tehm, what is usually behind the hand that holds the gun? Most of the time it is Center Mast. So it is quite possible to hit the assailants gun hand when shooting for COM, incidentaly.

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