"It will get stolen"

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I was looking through the page on the various arguments against OC, and I came across one with a response that didn't quite answer it. This is the reason I generally don't OC, or at least around my neighborhood, and I know the situation is similar for millions of people in the Us.

I live within what you would call a high crime area. PBS even did a show recently on our gangs (and the pop. is 13k.)
One of my concerns with OCing was that due to the presence of a large amount of gang-members is the neighborhood, that they would see me OC, find out where I live, know when and where I work (I am a librarian - easy to find out when I am now home,) and remove the gun from my home.

My fears were rationalized when the guy in the apartment next to mine was arrested for among other things, stealing a gun from a cop's house and using it in a driveby. This was between two shootings that day, and it was apparent that they knew where the gun was, and picked it up when they were going shooting. The fact that these guys learn where houses are that have guns, and then steal them when they need them is for me reason enough to not OC in town, but always CC. I OC out of town.

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cynicist wrote:

I was looking through the page on the various arguments against OC, and I came across one with a response that didn't quite answer it. This is the reason I generally don't OC, or at least around my neighborhood, and I know the situation is similar for millions of people in the Us.

I live within what you would call a high crime area. PBS even did a show recently on our gangs (and the pop. is 13k.)
One of my concerns with OCing was that due to the presence of a large amount of gang-members is the neighborhood, that they would see me OC, find out where I live, know when and where I work (I am a librarian - easy to find out when I am now home,) and remove the gun from my home.

My fears were rationalized when the guy in the apartment next to mine was arrested for among other things, stealing a gun from a cop's house and using it in a driveby. The fact that these guys learn where houses are that have guns, and then steal them when they need them is for me reason enough to not OC in town, but always CC. I OC out of town.

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If you carry a gun with you when you leave the house, that is one gun the burglars won't get to steal while you're away. If you own more guns at home and the are properly stored in a heavy gun safe they probably won't be able to get them either. And if you OC while out in your yard, the bad guys aren't likely to want to break in on you while your at home, cuz they don't like the prospects of being shot.

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I guess the answer is while OC could increase your chance of being robbed while you are out, statistics say that's unlikely. Just ask any of the hundreds of forum members if they've ever had their guns stolen because the guy knew you had guns. Personally, I think the increased likelihood is offset by the likelihood that the guy will think that if you go so far as to OC you've probably made it difficult to get your guns while you are away. To me it comes down to the same thing as a gun grab, sure it's technically possible, but history has shown it to be very unlikely.

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IMHO the correct answer is to have a safe for times when you leave your firearm at home. If you cannot afford or do not need a large heavy safe, then get one of the smaller concealable ones that can be bolted to the building inside a wall or other hidden location. If you are a renter and cannot alter your house, there are safes that can be installed in your car. These will usually allow you to comply with any laws regarding having a gun while in your car, including state to state travel.

There is some merit to the argument that if the bad guys always see you armed, they will think twice about coming to your house. But as the police robbery you cite points out this is by no means a certain deterrent. The best deterrent is to have the gun with you at all times.

Regards

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Hawkflyer wrote:

...But as the police robbery you cite points out this is by no means a certain deterrent...

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IMHO, you have to be careful when comparing OCers to cops. Cops by their very nature are enemies of criminals, and are therefore going to have higher rates of crimes (of all kinds) committed against them.

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cynicist wrote:

One of my concerns with OCing was that due to the presence of a large amount of gang-members in the neighborhood, that they would see me OC, find out where I live, know when and where I work...and remove the gun from my home.

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This anti-OC argument is the only one I've ever considered to have any real merit. I have always resisted the desire to share with friends my affinity for firearms. Likewise my kids don't tell their friends that we have guns in the house for this reason and others. Their friends may tell others who are not to be trusted. I'm even hesitant to be forthcoming on an open forum like OCDO.

There are no pro-gun stickers on my truck because I don't want someone breaking in to it searching for a gun. I avidly support the initiative to legalize OC in Texas and have a desire to OC here. It is a right that everyone should be free to exercise at their discretion. Still I struggle with the notion that OC will advertise to opportunistic criminalsthat my home and vehicles may contain firearms.

Yours truly, Conflicted.

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cccook wrote:

cynicist wrote:

One of my concerns with OCing was that due to the presence of a large amount of gang-members in the neighborhood, that they would see me OC, find out where I live, know when and where I work...and remove the gun from my home.

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This anti-OC argument is the only one I've ever considered to have any real merit. I have always resisted the desire to share with friends my affinity for firearms. Likewise my kids don't tell their friends that we have guns in the house for this reason and others. Their friends may tell others who are not to be trusted. I'm even hesitant to be forthcoming on an open forum like OCDO.

There are no pro-gun stickers on my truck because I don't want someone breaking in to it searching for a gun. I avidly support the initiative to legalize OC in Texas and have a desire to OC here. It is a right that everyone should be free to exercise at their discretion. Still I struggle with the notion that OC will advertise to opportunistic criminalsthat my home and vehicles may contain firearms.

Yours truly, Conflicted.

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At the same time cccookit will make them think twice about breaking in. The crooks could break into your house after watching you unload Christmas gifts too, but that doesn't make you use the back door does it? Criminals could break into your house for numerous reasons, if you try to out guess them then you will only wind up a prisoner in your own home.

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cynicist wrote:

I was looking through the page on the various arguments against OC, and I came across one with a response that didn't quite answer it. This is the reason I generally don't OC, or at least around my neighborhood, and I know the situation is similar for millions of people in the Us.

I live within what you would call a high crime area. PBS even did a show recently on our gangs (and the pop. is 13k.)
One of my concerns with OCing was that due to the presence of a large amount of gang-members is the neighborhood, that they would see me OC, find out where I live, know when and where I work (I am a librarian - easy to find out when I am now home,) and remove the gun from my home.

My fears were rationalized when the guy in the apartment next to mine was arrested for among other things, stealing a gun from a cop's house and using it in a driveby. This was between two shootings that day, and it was apparent that they knew where the gun was, and picked it up when they were going shooting. The fact that these guys learn where houses are that have guns, and then steal them when they need them is for me reason enough to not OC in town, but always CC. I OC out of town.

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Very interesting. Are you legally allowed to carry in the library you work at? If not, I would not leave the gun in my home in your situationbut I would consider what another poster said and bolt a small safein the car and leave it there while you work. I would not let the fact that you may OC deter you because you are concerned about what someone may do to the place you live, but that is easy for me to say. You should do what makes you comfortable.

If you are allowed to carry at work, then all this is a moot point because you should have it with you. If you have other firearms at home, you should keep them in a safe or at least a very hidden location.

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FogRider wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

...But as the police robbery you cite points out this is by no means a certain deterrent...

Click to expand...

IMHO, you have to be careful when comparing OCers to cops. Cops by their very nature are enemies of criminals, and are therefore going to have higher rates of crimes (of all kinds) committed against them.

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While I would normally agree, this is a special case. We are not really comparing LEO verses civilian crime rates so much as looking at the likelihood that an armed person would be followed home to identify a house where there may be firearms.

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the likelihood that an armed person would be followed home to identify a house where there may be firearms.

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That's the issue for me, and it's a very strong one, since I am somewhat of a public figure, a lot of people know who I am, and all the cholos in the neighborhood know who I am and which apartment I live in, it's not a matter of being followed, it's simply being seen with the gun. And considering that the guy that stole a gun from the cop's house lived in the apt. next to mine, it's apparent that there are people that look out for who would have a gun, and that I see (or saw, in the case of this guy and his roomie) them on a regular basis.

If I still lived in Seattle I wouldn't care- odds are one person would never see me carry twice. But I live in a small town with a near record (if not record) gang membership. It's a very different situation than the suburbs.

None of this should be construed to mean that I am not an advocate of OC. If you ever come to Sunnyside, by all means, let them see it.

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cynicist wrote:

the likelihood that an armed person would be followed home to identify a house where there may be firearms.

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That's the issue for me, and it's a very strong one, since I am somewhat of a public figure, a lot of people know who I am, and all the cholos in the neighborhood know who I am and which apartment I live in, it's not a matter of being followed, it's simply being seen with the gun. And considering that the guy that stole a gun from the cop's house lived in the apt. next to mine, it's apparent that there are people that look out for who would have a gun, and that I see (or saw, in the case of this guy and his roomie) them on a regular basis.

If I still lived in Seattle I wouldn't care- odds are one person would never see me carry twice. But I live in a small town with a near record (if not record) gang membership. It's a very different situation than the suburbs.

None of this should be construed to mean that I am not an advocate of OC. If you ever come to Sunnyside, by all means, let them see it.

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What evidence do you have that the LE that was robbed was followed home to determine where firearms might be taken? If you don't have such evicence, then you are making an assumption that may not be warrented.

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This is why I OC where I am anonymous and CC where I am not anonymous. A gun is a valuable like an expensive watch, gold necklace, or other various items. I don't carry $600 in cash around in plain view but I do carry a $600 gun in plain view. This is one of those cases where you just use your judgment. When I go to stores, banks, restaurants, and other public establishments by myself with the sole purpose to just buy something or complete an errand, I will OC to avoid being bothered by criminals and bums when entering or leaving the establishment. At my residence I really don't like to stand out so I do CC. I'm not trying to deter crime where I live because there shouldn't be crime there to begin with as I won't put up with it and I expect the landlord not to put up with it either. Should there be a situation that requires OCing, I will OC a long gun until the problematic individual is off of the premises. The other time I CC is when around friends or in social environments where not everyone knows I am a gun owner, not everyone is pro-gun, or if I feel that OCing will detract from making it a relaxed social environment. Likewise, even my friends who are pro-gun don't need to know every detail about my private life.

One of my concerns about firearms is the fact that I don't really secure them in the home. I live by myself and don't have too many people over too often so I haven't had any real incentive to keep firearms out of reach or secured from unauthorized persons. I probably should take this stuff more seriously though because one time I took a girl out on a date and she came over to my apartment and the next thing I know she is quite interested in the loaded shotgun she had just found in my place. Interestingly enough she actually had a lot of experience with firearms previously and wasn't dumb or rude enough to just pick it up and start messing with it. Nonetheless, it probably isn't a good idea to have loaded long guns just sitting around when friends or others are over. They aren't valuable enough to warrant me buying a safe for them either though at least not yet until the Obama prices for guns hit.

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What evidence do you have that the LE that was robbed was followed home to determine where firearms might be taken?

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This isn't a court of law.
What happened is that someone from gang A was shot by gang B in the park at 6:10 pm. Between that time and "just before sunset," the gun was stolen and used by gang A to shoot at gang B in retaliation. The shooter was killed, and gang B the shot up the shooters house, not knowing they had killed him. The police, in their wisdom, told the papers the shootings were unrelated.
I'm not saying the is definitive proof that he was followed, but they did go and break into the house when they needed a gun. I would use deduction, which wouldn't stand up in a court, but it's reason for me to think that they knew there was a gun there.
Keep in mind that my town is still small enough to be called an everybody-knows-everbody kind of town.

Look, I'm not against OC, it's just that there are reasonable reasons why someone (in this case me) shouldn't.

This is why I OC where I am anonymous and CC where I am not anonymous.

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That's kind of the short version of my point. That's pretty much what I do.

I'm not trying to deter crime where I live because there shouldn't be crime there to begin with as I won't put up with it and I expect the landlord not to put up with it either.

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I don't have that luxury- my landlord won't/can't do anything about it. Fortunately, I'm close enough with enough of my neighbors to deter to a certain degree, but we have to sleep sometime. It's the sudden instances involving someone who doesn't rent there that can be a problem. I started carrying with a round in the chamber after I had to stop the bleeding on one of my neighbors' heads (I don't know what he did to get that sort treatment, but I imagine it wasn't nothing.) It wasn't residents of the apartment that did it, so the landlord couldn't really do anything.

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When home I am covered as I have a shotgun "loaded" (rounds in the feed tube, not in chamber) and my OC weapon is on me or within arms reach at all times locked, but not loaded. All others are locked in a case with DOJ approved gun locks.

When not home, my OC weapon is...well...with me...and the shotgun goes in a locked case with a DOJ approved gun lock installed.

It is not as prime as a safe, but until I can find a viable alternative for a 2nd floor apartment in my price range it is the best I can do.

In either case they will have a hard time to steal them when I am home or a hard time using them if they do steal them when I am not.

And I will never leave my gun in the car because the business wants me to. I would rather leave and do business elsewhere than run the risk of it getting the wrong hands.

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protector84 wrote:

...SNIP

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One of my concerns about firearms is the fact that I don't really secure them in the home. I live by myself and don't have too many people over too often so I haven't had any real incentive to keep firearms out of reach or secured from unauthorized persons. I probably should take this stuff more seriously though because one time I took a girl out on a date and she came over to my apartment and the next thing I know she is quite interested in the loaded shotgun she had just found in my place. Interestingly enough she actually had a lot of experience with firearms previously and wasn't dumb or rude enough to just pick it up and start messing with it. Nonetheless, it probably isn't a good idea to have loaded long guns just sitting around when friends or others are over. They aren't valuable enough to warrant me buying a safe for them either though at least not yet until the Obama prices for guns hit.

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IMHO locking up the firearms you have in your home is more about safety then it is about the value of the firearms. A cheap firearm that falls into the wrong hands is just as dangerous as an expensive one. While I do not support laws requiring people to have a safe or locks, I support the idea of having them as a matter of responsible firearms ownership.

Regards

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My brother had guns stolen out of my dad's house. The people who stole them seemed to know where to look (we think a friend innocently mentioned his collection in the wrong company), so you do need to secure them and not advertise that you have anything of particular value generally. I leave early in the morning when I go hunting or to the range, so I don't think anyone's seen me carting around lots of hardware.

-ljp

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I make no attempts to disguise the fact that I carry when I am around my property. I have blatantly posted alarm signage, an always locked door, and a nice safe. If my gun(s) aren't on my, they are heavily secured.
This of course will vary person to person and by situation.

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There's no pretty answer to this. If you live in a bad neighborhood anything of value is in jeopardy of being stolen. I live in a kinda shady area. One day I left my Zune in my truck and had it charging with the screen on. Someone saw the screen, went into my truck and stole the Zune...along with all of my pocket change in my console.

Now whenever I am driving through my neighborhood I turn my radio down (I have a fairly decent audio system) because i don't want people to know to go through my truck again. Sometimes OCing isn't necessarily the best idea. Walking through a metro in Alexandria, VA there were a lot of sketchy people. One guy saw my gun (my other two friends were carrying as well), walked towards me and brushed my side. I quickly moved away from him but realized that neither OC nor CC are always best under every situation. You just have to be smart, use common sense and understand when OC isn't ideal (it isn't always).

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richarcm wrote:

..SNIP

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One guy saw my gun (my other two friends were carrying as well), walked towards me and brushed my side. I quickly moved away from him but realized that neither OC nor CC are always best under every situation.

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SNIP...

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You allowed a stranger to brush up against you while you were carrying!?

You actually saw the guy look at your weapon, and then move toward you, and you allowed him to brush up against you!!??

This is a serious violation of the most BASIC principal of situational awareness. Did this person brush up against you on your carry side? You should never allow this to occur while you are carrying.

Regards

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Exactly how do you prevent someone from brushing up against you??

In an urban setting that would be literally impossible.


edit to add no way to be sure the brusher for sure saw the weapon of the brushee beforehand, but it really is a moot point...